Lack of free will as an objective disproof of Mormonism

[Rivendale]

If free will is real and god is real he is a monster. He knew going in that most people would fail. He put them through this bizarre test knowing that. I wouldn't worship him if he was real.

It depends on what you think the test is.

It isn’t necessarily whether or not you become a Christian and/or a member of the CofJCofLDS.

What do you think the test is?

How one defines ‘test’ directly has to do on success or failure in this life. You may very well NOT be failing ‘the test’.

I think people, generally speaking, are often too hard on themselves thinking that they are failing God and/or failing in life. However, I don’t think God views any of us as abject failures.

I’m not sure what you mean when you seem to be saying God purposefully sent us to earth to fail. If God is a loving God this just doesn’t make sense.

Neither does a monster god make sense. If you look at God in this way it is going to distort any vision you might have as Him as your Father. Is it not?

Regards,
MG

Kobayashi Maru does not help here.

[MG 2.0]

It depends on what you think the test is.

It isn’t necessarily whether or not you become a Christian and/or a member of the CofJCofLDS.

What do you think the test is?

How one defines ‘test’ directly has to do on success or failure in this life. You may very well NOT be failing ‘the test’.

I think people, generally speaking, are often too hard on themselves thinking that they are failing God and/or failing in life. However, I don’t think God views any of us as abject failures.

I’m not sure what you mean when you seem to be saying God purposefully sent us to earth to fail. If God is a loving God this just doesn’t make sense.

Neither does a monster god make sense. If you look at God in this way it is going to distort any vision you might have as Him as your Father. Is it not?

Regards,
MG

Kobayashi Maru does not help here.

Man, it’s hard to get you guys to open up about your thoughts.

Thanks for the short conversation.

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

That's not entirely true, MG, in the past when I've explained some things in detail, you've moved on without responding.

For instance, not too long ago, I made the point that when considering the entire realm of human belief in a creator God, you are going to hell for eternity within the vast majority of those creator-God conceptions.

[MG 2.0]

That's not entirely true, MG, in the past when I've explained some things in detail, you've moved on without responding.

For instance, not too long ago, I made the point that when considering the entire realm of human belief in a creator God, you are going to hell for eternity within the vast majority of those creator-God conceptions.

I have no recollection of that exchange and you expressing your own beliefs in respect to whatever point you were trying to make. I would be happy to have you link to the specific instance you are referring to.

In this instance Rivendale is explicit taking a position of ‘easy way out’ by using a cliché/empty place holder of sorts.

I would love to hear his thoughts in response to my questions. If he chooses not to that is his prerogative.

Gadianton, my questions are routinely ignored and/or sidetracked through ‘flak’ being thrown out as a diversionary technique. I think that it is very possible that I have answered and responded directly to more questions on this board than almost any other person. People know more about me than I know about them by light years, so to speak.

Generally speaking, the only thing I know here is that people have a personal vendetta of one sort or another against the church and its leaders. But truly knowing what they actually believe and what runs their lives it is very difficult to get a handle on.

At times I almost get the feeling I’m communicating with bots or an AI responder. It is so predictable.

Anyway, enough I suppose. It’s just that in this case and many others I’d really like to know what makes you people tick…but when I try it’s typically obfuscation or polemics that rule the day.

As just one example, I have absolutely NO idea what to make of this Chang fellow. It’s difficult to ascertain if he is even a human. Just kidding. But maybe you know what I’m getting at.His one skill set seems to include posting GIF’s and pasting supposedly witty or funny captions on them. That’s also about all I could really say about the persona that goes by Schreech.

An indefinable bunch. Almost like translucent plastic cut outs. You can see right through them but there’s nothing there.

Regards,
MG

[huckelberry]

That's not entirely true, MG, in the past when I've explained some things in detail, you've moved on without responding.

For instance, not too long ago, I made the point that when considering the entire realm of human belief in a creator God, you are going to hell for eternity within the vast majority of those creator-God conceptions.

vast majority?

He is part of the people of the book for Islam. He is a Christian so saved for that view. Jews are not hot on filling hell. There are subgroups with greater enthusiasm for hell who may think MG qualifies. I don't.

[MG 2.0]

That's not entirely true, MG, in the past when I've explained some things in detail, you've moved on without responding.

For instance, not too long ago, I made the point that when considering the entire realm of human belief in a creator God, you are going to hell for eternity within the vast majority of those creator-God conceptions.

vast majority?

He is part of the people of the book for Islam. He is a Christian so saved for that view. Jews are not hot on filling hell. There are subgroups with greater enthusiasm for hell who may think MG qualifies. I don't.

That’s comforting. Thanks!

That’s one thing I really like about LDS doctrine after having muddled through Book of Mormon teachings/references to hell. Not a whole lot of folks are going to qualify. Most folks have a kingdom of glory to look forward to.

And our choices/free will matter a lot.

Regards,
MG

[honorentheos]

Today is a snow day here in Utah. I made a free will choice to stay in and play around on this board. Did I have to? No. But it’s snowing and cold outside. I just finished a novel I was reading. Today I felt like writing and participating on this board rather than not (as I choose otherwise to do at other times because of good weather and a greater variety of things to do), and it was a conscious choice as far as I can tell.

In this way I suppose free will is deterministic based on factors in the environment and feelings/thoughts resulting therefrom. But it’s still free will as much as I can determine.

Let's chew on this for a bit. You describe making a conscious choice to write and participate on the board. What process was involved in choosing?

[Rivendale]

Kobayashi Maru does not help here.

Man, it’s hard to get you guys to open up about your thoughts.

Thanks for the short conversation.

Regards,
MG

It really isn't that hard to get a feel for what certain individuals believe here. Many of the people here are on multiple platforms and express the same ideas. You never stay around long enough to allow any in-depth conversations. That is okay. Life is complicated. I can't speak for anyone else but for the the most part the evidence presented is not convincing. The tirade of what if's, maybe's is tiring. Whataboutism is tiring. There is just no convincing paradigms that work. Give me one rabbit fossil in the Precambrian and I might listen....... Until then I will enjoy my limited time with my family and be forever fascinated with people like you that think spirits, prophecies, gold plates, somehow have some eternal consequence on our lives.

[malkie]

I remember reading this a while ago. Perhaps this is a good time to throw it into the mix.

https://www.wired.com/2008/04/mind-decision/

The unease people feel at the potential unreality of free will, said National Institutes of Health neuroscientist Mark Hallett, originates in a misconception of self as separate from the brain.

"That's the same notion as the mind being separate from the body -- and I don't think anyone really believes that," said Hallett. "A different way of thinking about it is that your consciousness is only aware of some of the things your brain is doing."

Hallett doubts that free will exists as a separate, independent force.

"If it is, we haven't put our finger on it," he said. "But we're happy to keep looking."

Do I have any idea why I made the decision to make this comment?

ETA: Did I make the decision?

[MG 2.0]

Man, it’s hard to get you guys to open up about your thoughts.

Thanks for the short conversation.

Regards,
MG

It really isn't that hard to get a feel for what certain individuals believe here. Many of the people here are on multiple platforms and express the same ideas. You never stay around long enough to allow any in-depth conversations. That is okay. Life is complicated. I can't speak for anyone else but for the the most part the evidence presented is not convincing. The tirade of what if's, maybe's is tiring. Whataboutism is tiring. There is just no convincing paradigms that work. Give me one rabbit fossil in the Precambrian and I might listen....... Until then I will enjoy my limited time with my family and be forever fascinated with people like you that think spirits, prophecies, gold plates, somehow have some eternal consequence on our lives.

Thanks for your reply Rivendale. I think I now understand a bit more where your free will has led you.

Regards,
MG