Lack of free will as an objective disproof of Mormonism

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Rivendale
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Re: Lack of free will as an objective disproof of Mormonism

Post by Rivendale »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:44 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:31 am


It really isn't that hard to get a feel for what certain individuals believe here. Many of the people here are on multiple platforms and express the same ideas. You never stay around long enough to allow any in-depth conversations. That is okay. Life is complicated. I can't speak for anyone else but for the the most part the evidence presented is not convincing. The tirade of what if's, maybe's is tiring. Whataboutism is tiring. There is just no convincing paradigms that work. Give me one rabbit fossil in the Precambrian and I might listen....... Until then I will enjoy my limited time with my family and be forever fascinated with people like you that think spirits, prophecies, gold plates, somehow have some eternal consequence on our lives.
Thanks for your reply Rivendale. I think I now understand a bit more where your free will has led you.

Regards,
MG
Of course I have free will, I don't have a choice. :lol:
MG 2.0
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Re: Lack of free will as an objective disproof of Mormonism

Post by MG 2.0 »

honorentheos wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:22 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:05 am
Today is a snow day here in Utah. I made a free will choice to stay in and play around on this board. Did I have to? No. But it’s snowing and cold outside. I just finished a novel I was reading. Today I felt like writing and participating on this board rather than not (as I choose otherwise to do at other times because of good weather and a greater variety of things to do), and it was a conscious choice as far as I can tell.

In this way I suppose free will is deterministic based on factors in the environment and feelings/thoughts resulting therefrom. But it’s still free will as much as I can determine.
Let's chew on this for a bit. You describe making a conscious choice to write and participate on the board. What process was involved in choosing?
Looking at alternatives and then making a decision. Of course if I’d just stayed in bed that decision would have limited my options. Every time we make a choice there is a certain amount of free will that goes into it. Limited as it might be depending on the situation.

Decisions from exercising free will and/or the right to choose can and do cascade into positions of confinement or liberation that in turn impact options/choices and thus either limit or broaden the spectrum of free will.

First world folks that live in free societies generally have almost unlimited options and thus greater opportunity for manifesting their ability to make choices and exercise free will.

Restrictive societies have much less opportunity for individuals to make choices. Free will and options/choices are tied at the hip.

I don’t think we need to over complicate things.

I’ve heard some folks say that once they learned ‘the truth’ about Mormonism they really didn’t have any choice but to leave the church. Their free will was diminished. But that’s because they settled on a limited set of options/choices without looking at a broader spectrum of choices, in my opinion.

Energies, drive, moral rectitude, and other ‘in built’ attributes that vary from person to person based upon heredity/environment can also act as either catalysts or inhibitors as to the amount of free will an individual might be able to exercise.

I think that one can either choose to think that we have free will or not. As we do so we exercise our free will.

Personally I believe that the options/choices available to choose between religions of different stripes or no religion at all are finely tuned so that we are able to truly exercise our will to follow one path or another. And each path can make perfect sense!

God or no God?

Of course, indoctrination can impact that process of will if we’ve been conditioned not to ask questions, etc. But even at that there is still that ‘spark’ that can fire up and the will for change/choice can be the driving force. Free will.

There you go! It’s not rocket science…is it? 😉🙂

Free speech and free will are also joined at the hip. Some here on this very board would have free speech and thus free will curtailed through intimidation, innuendos, and ad hominem. The will to persevere through all of that flak is a mighty thing! Free will. One could choose to shrivel up in response and keep one’s mouth shut. Free will.

OK…what shall I exercise my will to do now…

Next episode of…

Hope that helps. I don’t know that I have much more to say in response.

Have a nice weekend.🙂

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Lack of free will as an objective disproof of Mormonism

Post by MG 2.0 »

Rivendale wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:59 pm

Of course I have free will, I don't have a choice. :lol:
Yup.

Regards,
MG
Marcus
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Re: Lack of free will as an objective disproof of Mormonism

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:42 am
Gadianton wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:07 am
That's not entirely true, MG, in the past when I've explained some things in detail, you've moved on without responding.

For instance, not too long ago, I made the point that when considering the entire realm of human belief in a creator God, you are going to hell for eternity within the vast majority of those creator-God conceptions.
I have no recollection of that exchange and you expressing your own beliefs in respect to whatever point you were trying to make. I would be happy to have you link to the specific instance you are referring to.

In this instance Rivendale is explicit taking a position of ‘easy way out’ by using a cliché/empty place holder of sorts.

I would love to hear his thoughts in response to my questions. If he chooses not to that is his prerogative.

Gadianton, my questions are routinely ignored and/or sidetracked through ‘flak’ being thrown out as a diversionary technique. I think that it is very possible that I have answered and responded directly to more questions on this board than almost any other person. People know more about me than I know about them by light years, so to speak.

Generally speaking, the only thing I know here is that people have a personal vendetta of one sort or another against the church and its leaders. But truly knowing what they actually believe and what runs their lives it is very difficult to get a handle on.

At times I almost get the feeling I’m communicating with bots or an AI responder. It is so predictable.

Anyway, enough I suppose. It’s just that in this case and many others I’d really like to know what makes you people tick…
:lol: As though "us people" are all the same.
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Re: Lack of free will as an objective disproof of Mormonism

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:34 am
...I don’t think we need to over complicate things.

I’ve heard some folks say that once they learned ‘the truth’ about Mormonism they really didn’t have any choice but to leave the church. Their free will was diminished. But that’s because they settled on a limited set of options/choices without looking at a broader spectrum of choices, in my opinion...
I don't think I have ever read a more backwards description of the process of making such a choice.
honorentheos
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Re: Lack of free will as an objective disproof of Mormonism

Post by honorentheos »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:34 am
honorentheos wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:22 am


Let's chew on this for a bit. You describe making a conscious choice to write and participate on the board. What process was involved in choosing?
Looking at alternatives and then making a decision. Of course if I’d just stayed in bed that decision would have limited my options.
Ok, this is a start. I propose we use "examine" in place of "look" as looking implies the use of a specific physical sense.
This change seems more inline with what you meant, too. "...making a decision" didn't progress the discussion as it just repeated the vague claim about a choice being made. But we can work with it overall.

To stay in bed or to not stay in bed...what was examined in the decision there? What was considered?
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malkie
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Re: Lack of free will as an objective disproof of Mormonism

Post by malkie »

honorentheos wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:04 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:34 am


Looking at alternatives and then making a decision. Of course if I’d just stayed in bed that decision would have limited my options.
Ok, this is a start. I propose we use "examine" in place of "look" as looking implies the use of a specific physical sense.
This change seems more inline with what you meant, too. "...making a decision" didn't progress the discussion as it just repeated the vague claim about a choice being made. But we can work with it overall.

To stay in bed or to not stay in bed...what was examined in the decision there? What was considered?
Worth noting, perhaps, is that, in the same way that staying in bed would have limited his options, getting out of bed also limited MG's options. Every decision made, including a decision to do nothing, limits subsequent choices.

Is this not the very point of thinking that we are making a decision: to set off down a particular path, out of all of the possible paths, in the hopes that it will eventually take us to where we want to go, or at least to an advantageous place?
---
Edited for clarity - I seem to be doing a lot of this lately: senior issues? I hope not!
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MG 2.0
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Re: Lack of free will as an objective disproof of Mormonism

Post by MG 2.0 »

Marcus wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:23 am
As though "us people" are all the same.
As though? Not.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Lack of free will as an objective disproof of Mormonism

Post by MG 2.0 »

Marcus wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:30 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:34 am
...I don’t think we need to over complicate things.

I’ve heard some folks say that once they learned ‘the truth’ about Mormonism they really didn’t have any choice but to leave the church. Their free will was diminished. But that’s because they settled on a limited set of options/choices without looking at a broader spectrum of choices, in my opinion...
I don't think I have ever read a more backwards description of the process of making such a choice.
I’m saying it can go both ways. If the shoe fits…

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Lack of free will as an objective disproof of Mormonism

Post by MG 2.0 »

honorentheos wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:04 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:34 am


Looking at alternatives and then making a decision. Of course if I’d just stayed in bed that decision would have limited my options.
Ok, this is a start. I propose we use "examine" in place of "look" as looking implies the use of a specific physical sense.
This change seems more inline with what you meant, too. "...making a decision" didn't progress the discussion as it just repeated the vague claim about a choice being made. But we can work with it overall.

To stay in bed or to not stay in bed...what was examined in the decision there? What was considered?
Hi honor, I’ll let others respond to your further inquiries on free will. I really don’t have an interest in getting into the nuts and bolts. I simply accept the reality that there are choices and opportunities and free will is involved in heading down various paths.

My previous post says about all I have to say for now.

Regards,
MG
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