DiscussMormonism.com

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:32 pm

I think being Mormon these days means you’re 100% on board with:

- Breaking laws, lying, and cheating to hide billions of dollars from both members and governments across the world.

- Covering up sexual abuse cases in the church, and protecting the abusers to avoid a negative image, seemingly with zero concern for victims.

- Lying about and hiding the true history of the church and the immorality of its key founding leaders.

- Utilizing gaslighting and other forms of manipulation on members to avoid accountability.

- Promoting racist, sexist, and homophobic doctrines resulting in significant harm but taking no responsibility for the harm caused.

- Hoarding massive wealth while being extremely miserly toward helping its own members in financial distress or making any real effort to address societal problems - all while claiming to be Christ’s church.

- Promoting the worship of its leaders, and feeding their sense of total authority, infallibility, and entitlement. Stand up for Bednar!

- Constantly lying about and obfuscating its true teachings and motivations to the outside world.

Such a disgusting stew of lies, cheating, cover-ups, and deflection. Any moral person should be sickened by the church and refuse to be associated with it.

- Doc

Xenophon wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:56 pm

in my opinion this only aggravates the issues with leaving. Not only does one have to come to grips with the reality of the theological implications but now that transition is also accompanied by the cultural shock of trying to fit back in with the rest of the world. It can feel like a very lonely time for sure.

All that said, I don't think the idea of being cultural Mormon perfectly parallels with being a cultural Jew. I'll admit my perspective is limited as I've never lived in the LDS belt but as an explainer: I have at least one culturally Jewish friend who's parents would likely be considered cultural Jews as well and his children see themselves in much the same way. They participate in some of the rites without really believing in the religious aspects of it. I can't imagine an Ex-Mormon behaving in a similar way. I'm not sure it is a mythos that can (or should) be passed down. I'm hard pressed to think of an Ex-Mormon that would want to baptize their 8 year-old anyway or attend a temple ceremony for old-time's sake.

malkie wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:59 am

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:10 am

Interesting. My friend/former coworker was favorable to Israel though I am unsure that his Jewish identity arose from it. I've heard others speak of the same, including the social psychologist Jonathan Haidt who as far as I know isn't particularly tied to Israel. Are you noting this is one facet of potential identity among others and just asking if there is a Mormon equivalent? Or suggesting that secular Judaism is political identity rather than cultural? I'm curious.

I asked the question simply because it popped into my head as a result of your OP's mention of your Jewish friends.

I'm not aware of a Mormon equivalent, but I suppose it's not entirely impossible.

Although I had no thought of political vs. cultural identities before you asked, I have to say that I'm not sure that these two identities are necessarily neatly separable. For instance, active believing Mormons appear to be largely right leaning, and in the US are much more likely to be Republicans than Democrats, but I get the impression that a fair number of ex-Mormons and disaffected Mormons lean somewhat to the left (I'm not sure if there is a causal relationship, and if so in which direction). However, both might equally claim to be culturally Mormon.

Am I making sense? Is this really answering your questions?

Ultraconservatives Say Church is Purging Them, November 29, 1992 https://apnews.com/article/81040a276f43 ... 855c268501

It's Judgment Day for Far Right: LDS Church Purges Survivalists, Salt Lake Tribune, November 29, 1992 https://culteducation.com/group/1193-tr ... lists.html

Some names relevant to the 90's Purge:

BO GRITZ joined the Church in 1984, in response to a visionary experience in the jungles of Southeast Asia, where he had been searching for missing American POWs. Around the same time, Gritz achieved national notoriety for alleging that the federal government was involved in the drug trade. Seven years later, Gritz published Called to Serve, which warned that the Constitution was “hanging by a thread” due to a “secret combination” within the U.S. government. In 1992, Gritz ran as presidential candidate for the far-right Populist Party on a platform that included abolishing the income tax and the federal reserve.

When the Church began to crack down on ultraconservatives, Gritz proclaimed his allegiance to President Benson and hinted that other Church leaders were now in league with the New World Order. Gritz resigned from the Church after his stake president refused to renew his recommend until Gritz proved he had paid his income taxes. Thereafter, Gritz moved increasingly to the political and theological right. In 2000, he founded the Fellowship of Eternal Warriors (the FEW), a religious fraternity led by twelve “warrior-priests” who have been “Set-Apart, Anointed, and Ordained” to combat the Satanic New World Order. The Fellowship appears to subscribe to a white supremacist ideology that regards Northern Europeans as the house of Israel—an extreme version of a belief once prevalent among Latter-day Saints and also espoused by Mitchell.



STERLING ALLAN, a lifelong Latter-day Saint, was only twenty-six years old when he founded the popular but ill-fated American Study Group. Inspired by President Benson’s call to study the Book of Mormon, Allan had earlier produced a book-length manuscript that used Book of Mormon history as a pattern for predicting events of the last days. The year after Church intervention led to the collapse of his study group, Allan tried to approach the podium during General Conference to deliver a talk warning the Church that it was moving towards apostasy. In November 1992, the same month as the Church’s “housecleaning” campaign, Allan fled to a remote location in California, convinced that nuclear holocaust was imminent.

Upon his return home to Manti in January 1993, Allan was excommunicated for his allegiance to teachings of Avraham Gileadi. At first, Allan, like Gileadi, attempted to regain his membership, having received personal revelation that God wanted him to submit to Church authority. Eventually, however, Allan accepted his excommunication as liberating.



JAMES HARMSTON and his wife Elaine, in response to President Benson’s exhortations, had been studying the Book of Mormon when they became troubled by departures from revealed teachings and practices by the contemporary Church. They sought answers directly from the Lord by performing in their home the rituals associated with the true order of prayer. Spiritual manifestations followed.

By 1989, Harmston had quit his job, trusting that the Lord would provide. A year later, the Harmstons moved to Manti, where they discovered that they were part of an apparently spontaneous gathering of ultraconservative Saints alarmed by such things as the Church’s support of the New World Order and changes in Church doctrine and ritual. The Harmstons began holding meetings in their home where like-minded Saints could study and discuss their concerns. In October 1992, the Harmstons were excommunicated as part of the mounting Church campaign against ultraconservatives. Denouncing the LDS Church as apostate, Harmston founded the True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days in 1994.

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:14 am

malkie wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:59 am

I asked the question simply because it popped into my head as a result of your OP's mention of your Jewish friends.

I'm not aware of a Mormon equivalent, but I suppose it's not entirely impossible.

Although I had no thought of political vs. cultural identities before you asked, I have to say that I'm not sure that these two identities are necessarily neatly separable. For instance, active believing Mormons appear to be largely right leaning, and in the US are much more likely to be Republicans than Democrats, but I get the impression that a fair number of ex-Mormons and disaffected Mormons lean somewhat to the left (I'm not sure if there is a causal relationship, and if so in which direction). However, both might equally claim to be culturally Mormon.

Am I making sense? Is this really answering your questions?

Around the end of the Bush administration and early into the Obama administration I had the anecdotal view that the best predictor a person would leave Mormonism or choose more of a cafeteria style of participation was if they leaned left or right on the political spectrum. I suspected it had to do with the idea the church might not be true but, if one was conservative, it was a good place to raise a family vs. it being a place where intolerance was fostered.

I'm not sure that holds as well today. It seems that the diehard faithful are also most commonly Republican than Democrat. But the number of conservative people I know who have disassociated from the Church is higher, too. It seems to some degree the Church has a difficult time being a haven for anti-government libertarians as it's become more of a government type institution as well. Granted, American politics has a particularly high degree of, "eat your own" motivation surging on both sides of the political spectrum. It just seems less reliable as a predictive metric in my experience. Thoughts?

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:04 am

I think one of the more difficult aspects of finding ones place post-Mormonism is contained in the concept of identity capital. Much of what one does as a Mormon that has value within the culture of Mormonism has zero value outside of the community. Going on missions, giving up careers to be stay at home moms, using your reading time to consume scripture or other LDS media that helps one fit in socially as a Mormon all came with the opportunity costs that could have been spent accruing hobbies and experiences that have more universal currency in non-Mormon social settings. Little habits regarding how one acts in groups, shareable knowledge others might find funny or interesting, or milestone achievements differ within vs. outside of Mormon culture. And it can feel like one spent their youth earning shares in a company that went belly up, leaving one without an identity capital nest egg to fall back on.

Good observations. Ex-Mormons don't seem like a category of folks who would engage in Mormon religious practices out of a sense of identity as Mormon. Exploring what it means to be secular Mormon needs some more thought.

malkie wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:51 am

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:14 am

Around the end of the Bush administration and early into the Obama administration I had the anecdotal view that the best predictor a person would leave Mormonism or choose more of a cafeteria style of participation was if they leaned left or right on the political spectrum. I suspected it had to do with the idea the church might not be true but, if one was conservative, it was a good place to raise a family vs. it being a place where intolerance was fostered.

I'm not sure that holds as well today. It seems that the diehard faithful are also most commonly Republican than Democrat. But the number of conservative people I know who have disassociated from the Church is higher, too. It seems to some degree the Church has a difficult time being a haven for anti-government libertarians as it's become more of a government type institution as well. Granted, American politics has a particularly high degree of, "eat your own" motivation surging on both sides of the political spectrum. It just seems less reliable as a predictive metric in my experience. Thoughts?

I don't think I have enough information to have a very coherent view of whether things have changed in general.

However, looking at places like (ugh!) the LDS Freedom Forum shows that people who claim to be faithful members, and who are well to the right, may see any concession by church leaders to (for example, recently) masks and vaccinations as being proof that the church is in apostacy. So, yes, I can appreciate that not just "lefties" like me might have a problem with the church, but with quite different motivations between the left- and the right-leaning folks.

Edited for clarity