Church comments on SEC settlement

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Moksha
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Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

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Moksha wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:30 am
Have you, by the way, ever noticed how many commercial tankers and freighters have a Liberian registry? Or Panamanian? Isn't it astonishing what economic titans Panama and Liberia are?
Are you suggesting that the Church incorporate in Panama or Liberia so they can avoid reporting requirements? That makes double sense considering the membership growth in Africa.

Smac wrote:Again, there is zero evidence of fraud or other "moral" misconduct.
Doesn't really matter if the Church is to be a Liberian corporation.
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Moksha
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Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

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The Utah Attorney General has gone after the SEC after they charged the LDS Church. As AG Reyes put it, "We can bite back in the name of Jesus Christ, amen".

https://gephardtdaily.com/local/utah-d- ... rDyTWKuJzA
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Kishkumen
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Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

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Moksha wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:27 am
The Utah Attorney General has gone after the SEC after they charged the LDS Church. As AG Reyes put it, "We can bite back in the name of Jesus Christ, amen".

https://gephardtdaily.com/local/utah-d- ... rDyTWKuJzA
Weird. Looks like a coincidence to me.
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Dr Moore
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Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

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Yes, the Utah litigation is something else, continuation of old news.
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Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

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It's crossed my mind that one of the reasons the Church sought to avoid reporting of its' investments is to hide what the Church has invested in. They've long suggested that they avoid investments that run contrary to Church teachings, but do they really? It's clear they avoid investing in Big Tobacco, but we can see they invest in paddlers of tobacco products, alcohol, contraception, tea, coffee...Once again they are caught trying to hide a lie, and seen to be not practicing what they preach.

They really don't want anyone seeing what they do behind closed doors. Transparency, honesty, not high priorities for the Church that exhorts members to be transparent and honest.

It's noteworthy that still no apology, still no resignations, still no firings, for a breach that cost the widows mite millions of dollars and a repetitional loss for the Church. Any other organisation would have already ticked those three boxes. CEO's would have walked or been pushed for this.
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Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

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First, “I believe in being honest.” What does it mean to be honest? The booklet True to the Faith teaches, “To be honest means to be sincere, truthful, and without deceit at all times.”2 It is a commandment from God to be honest,3 and “complete honesty is necessary for our salvation.”4

President Howard W. Hunter taught that we must be willing to be strictly honest. He said:

“Several years ago there were posters in the foyers and entries of our chapels that were entitled ‘Be Honest with Yourself.’ Most of them pertained to the little, ordinary things of life. This is where the principle of honesty is cultivated.

“There are some who will admit it is morally wrong to be dishonest in big things yet believe it is excusable if those things are of lesser importance. Is there really any difference between dishonesty involving a thousand dollars or that which involves only a dime? … Are there really degrees of dishonesty, depending upon whether or not the subject is great or small?”

President Hunter continues: “If we would have the companionship of the Master and the Spirit of the Holy Ghost, we must be honest with ourselves, honest with God, and with our fellowmen. This results in true joy.”5

When we are honest in all things, big and small, we experience peace of mind and a clear conscience. Our relationships are enriched because they are based on trust. And the greatest blessing that comes from being honest is that we are able to have the companionship of the Holy Ghost.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... e?lang=eng

How does the Church's behaviour with its SEC filings stack up against this^?

As an aside, I searched the topic "honesty" within the General Conference section of the Church's website. The most recent hit was way back in 2017.
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Moksha
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Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

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IHAQ wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:22 am
President Hunter continues: “If we would have the companionship of the Master and the Spirit of the Holy Ghost, we must be honest with ourselves, honest with God, and with our fellowmen. This results in true joy.”
Yes, but... that was before the Church struck it rich in the stock market.
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Dr Moore
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Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

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Prediction: 2023 we will see the church redouble its efforts to look generous. Let's go specific: I predict at least $200 million in combined cash gifts to humanitarian charities by year-end, with an abundance of humblebrag press releases.

This hiding money to keep people paying fiasco is such a PR nightmare.
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Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

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Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:11 pm
Prediction: 2023 we will see the church redouble its efforts to look generous. Let's go specific: I predict at least $200 million in combined cash gifts to humanitarian charities by year-end, with an abundance of humblebrag press releases.

This hiding money to keep people paying fiasco is such a PR nightmare.
And Mark Puglsey on Dehlin's "Mormon Stories Podcast" fundamentally PROVED the church used tithing dollars to pay that fine. I am not at all fond of using the word proof for much of anything. In this case, proof is exactly what was demonstrated. ALL of the church's wealth is BASED on Tithing SURPLUS, which ended up in the Stock Market. It is all tithing doing all the finances in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and the church AGREED to that in the negotiated document they worked through with the SEC committee. That to me was a real eye opener.
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Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

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Bill Reel posted a thoughtful comment on r/exmo:
This week has been full of feeling things. Mostly in response to the the SEC Report and its fallout. Here is what I learned this week. Some of these things I sort of knew but some of these I didn't. And even the ones I did they came with a Force.

1.) The LDS Church can do whatever it wants and most believers could hardly care. They simply have little space in their head to face the facts that their entire life is built on a lie. This week showed me that LDS Leaders know this and prey on it. The First Presidency for over 20 years chose to carry out a plan to make more money at the expense of whatever fallout would happen one day if they got caught. They took the risk because they too didn't believe anything significant would happen that would offset the benefit of making Billions of Dollars.

2.) Follow the money. The Ethics of What Church leaders carried out only makes sense to me if they clearly don't believe the Church themselves. They literally didn't care about honesty, ethics, the appearance of Evil, their very own teachings about worthiness, having the Holy Ghost, and being an example of Christ. See the Wirthlin Quote Below. And on top of that, the financial benefit to them and their posterity is likely significantly more than most of us guess. The Leadership is setting itself up to have few to no butts in the seats in the future but to have so much cash and property they literally seem to see people simply as a way to transmit the virus of "wealth and property accumulation".

3.) I can only make sense of this if the top 15 are not good humans. And they know themselves that the Church isn't what it claims to be. That all of this is an intentional fraud. It is so clear right now that they don't believe the very doctrines they teach. See the Wirthlin Quote again. If deception and fraudulent behavior equals not having the companionship of the Holy Ghost, how can the leadership be a prophets, Seers, and Revelators when That same Leadership for 20 years carried out a massive deception of fraudulent behavior?

4.) This also means that Apologists and Progressive Mormons who make excuses for this or who give rhetoric to it not being that bad also don't really believe. Its a fun game for many of them where they enjoy the mental benefit of being able to come up with answers regardless of the problems. They like being the team captain. They enjoy being the smart compassionate nuanced Mormon. They can't possibly believe in the Holy Ghost, or Prophets, or the Companionship of the Holy Ghost because they know their leaders are corrupt and have been consistently so for at least 2 decades. Being Mormon is far more important than being fully honest at the risk of NOT being Mormon. I make room that some of them are trying to change things from the inside and they want to reduce harm and suffering inside the system. AND That they likely see themselves as doing a good work. But they do so with the tradeoff of losing integrity as Their words can't be trusted to represent their thoughts as their inability to call a spade a spade this week shows that none of this is about whether Mormonism is actually true or can deliver salvation as the Lord's True Church.

5.) The Church Leadership if they believed in their own doctrine would make themselves available to Church discipline. See Handbook images below. This should be the final straw, and certainly was for me, that these top 15 are above the system AND THEY KNOW IT. They have re-written the processes so that they are outside the realm of accountability. They have insulated themselves away from any process that would allow the members of the Church to hold them accountable. And because they get rid of critics they ensure the Majority will always be blind adherents. And hence the only option a member has is to leave. Your Leadership is corrupt and more corrupt than you likely know. Its hard to understand from the inside but almost everyone who was once in and dedicated to Mormonism and has since left and been given enough time to process and grieve says they are more at peace and grateful they left. That is certainly true for me and my family and for most of the 100's of people around me.

6.) Lastly, I will fail a thousand more times, but I am going to focus my mental and emotional capacity on helping those on the inside who can be helped to wake up and see the deception. To inform them to make new choices. And to support them and those who have stepped away to create a more vibrant second half of life. And Starting today I am going to work really hard to AVOID trying to force this egregiously corrupt deception called Mormonism to be honest and accountable and good. It was from its inception, never going to be that. And if it ever gets there it will be centuries and centuries before it does.To all of you who are angry, sad, frustrated, and disappointed. Who can't believe the Leaders can be this detached from the expectation their members have of them. To see how compromised their integrity is and seeing that on the inside it really doesn't matter what these men do. I see you. I am feeling all of that today.

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As an aside, I’m noticing an uptick in posts of TBMs, old heads, dipping. It’s about as analogous to the 2015 and Sam Young waves of Mormons leaving.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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