Loving the Mormons, hating their church

[dastardly stem]

Most people close to me are Mormons and aren't KKK members.

No one made that point.

My point is meant to be nothing more than talking about how we treat people who wish to discuss their ideas. Should we hear them out before shouting them down? I say yes. It makes sense to me.

Sure, sharing ideas are great. But back to my KKK analogy, does a ‘nice’ KKK member change your view of the KKK or its adherents? Are the Klan’s political and social policies somehow disassociated from the individual klan member, or does that klan member hold social accountability for being a ‘dues paying’ member of the klan?

- Doc

I've already expressed I think members of the LDS Church ought to answer for the types of questions you've previously posed. That's no different for any member of any group. For the quotation from the OP, I don't even think this faithful Mormon guy is saying he shouldn't be asked question or offered challenges for his belief in Mormonism. I read him as suggesting people are shouting him down and throw a bunch of vitriol at him before hearing his take on any given challenge. I don't mean to suggest we should wipe our sleight clean of any notion of what a Mormon thinks or believes. My comments are meant more as a how should we treat individuals who are willing to discuss ideas. We should hear them out before we shout them down.

[dastardly stem]

Thanks for recognizing this fact. Latter Day Saints, on the whole, are trying to be good, honest, and loving people.

Yeah...I think most people are. Many, as it turns out, simply have goofy ideas of what it means to be good, honest and loving.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

No one made that point.



Sure, sharing ideas are great. But back to my KKK analogy, does a ‘nice’ KKK member change your view of the KKK or its adherents? Are the Klan’s political and social policies somehow disassociated from the individual klan member, or does that klan member hold social accountability for being a ‘dues paying’ member of the klan?

- Doc

I've already expressed I think members of the LDS Church ought to answer for the types of questions you've previously posed. That's no different for any member of any group. For the quotation from the OP, I don't even think this faithful Mormon guy is saying he shouldn't be asked question or offered challenges for his belief in Mormonism. I read him as suggesting people are shouting him down and throw a bunch of vitriol at him before hearing his take on any given challenge. I don't mean to suggest we should wipe our sleight clean of any notion of what a Mormon thinks or believes. My comments are meant more as a how should we treat individuals who are willing to discuss ideas. We should hear them out before we shout them down.

Ok, you think a KKK member should have a chance to explain himself before he gets shouted down for being a KKK member. And I also take it that you think if he’s a buffet KKK member then he shouldn’t be held to account as much as if he were a stalwart KKK member.

You’re good in my book to follow the dictates of your conscience. That’s your ethos and your process. Cool.

I’m of a different mindset that some organizations are so obviously heinous and scammy that to actively belong to them is more reflective of the adherent’s values instead of softening the image of the organization’s image because the individual is generally a decent person. I suppose the nuance lies with where each organization is on the ‘good vs bad spectrum’ to begin with.

- Doc

[Salvete]

That’s an absurd whatabout. You don’t belong to Florida the Organization. A citizen can belong to a political party to influence how Floridians live, but a Floridian doesn’t belong to a particular political party other than by choice. That’d be akin to me saying you’re a fascist if you were a Nazi, and you come back at me sayin nOt AlL gErMaNs wErE nAzIs! Yeah, no crap.

- Doc

It’s not a “whatabout” (did you mean whataboutism?) Your position on this is absurd, and the way I addressed it was to think of a comparable absurd scenario. Members of groups are not monoliths with a single mind. Members of the church do not all think the same way nor hold all the same opinions.

Go on now, I know you want to violate Godwin’s law next. I’ll allow it.

[Salvete]

This is an absurd thing to believe.

I’m sure there are some people who live in Florida who don’t agree with Ron DeSantis and all of the terrible policies he is putting in place. I don’t think all Floridians are hardline right-wingers just because they live there and don’t move.

I should hope not! In any case, no one votes for the leaders of the LDS Church, and the LDS Church is what you might call a voluntary association. To my knowledge, no one thinks of the state they reside in as a voluntary association.

To be clear, in many cases it is a voluntary association. But if that is your contention, then I would say the same thing about employees of the state of Florida—meaning, even in that voluntary association, there are probably many who do not agree with DeSantis.

[Kishkumen]

To be clear, in many cases it is a voluntary association. But if that is your contention, then I would say the same thing about employees of the state of Florida—meaning, even in that voluntary association, there are probably many who do not agree with DeSantis.

Good point! Of course, most people in the LDS Church do not work for the Church, and I think employment does change the calculus considerably.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

That’s an absurd whatabout. You don’t belong to Florida the Organization. A citizen can belong to a political party to influence how Floridians live, but a Floridian doesn’t belong to a particular political party other than by choice. That’d be akin to me saying you’re a fascist if you were a Nazi, and you come back at me sayin nOt AlL gErMaNs wErE nAzIs! Yeah, no crap.

- Doc

It’s not a “whatabout” (did you mean whataboutism?) Your position on this is absurd, and the way I addressed it was to think of a comparable absurd scenario. Members of groups are not monoliths with a single mind. Members of the church do not all think the same way nor hold all the same opinions.

Go on now, I know you want to violate Godwin’s law next. I’ll allow it.

I meant “whatabout” when I typed “whatabout”, you daft pedant. And I already ‘violated Godwin’s law’, whatever that means, so there’s no “next.”

Comparing living in a geographical region to a voluntary association is absurd. It’s specious reasoning.

- Doc

[Salvete]

I meant “whatabout” when I typed “whatabout”, you daft pedant.

The word you’re looking for is deft, my heated fellow.

And I already ‘violated Godwin’s law’, whatever that means, so there’s no “next.”

Ah, you did indeed. Sorry, I have plug-in enabled on my browser that filters out rapid successions of switching capital/lowercase letters.

Comparing living in a geographical region to a voluntary association is absurd. It’s specious reasoning.

- Doc

Audience, should I let this knave think about this before I issue the slam dunk?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

https://www.middletownpress.com/news/po ... 816617.php

Former mayor, Mormon bishop gets prison for child sex abuse

…

Four women, now adults, cried as they detailed how painful it was to watch Carl Matthew Johnson, now 78, live a joyful life while they kept abuse that happened when they were little girls secret for decades. He was arrested last year on charges of abuse dating to the 1980s and 1990s, some of it while he was mayor of West Bountiful, a city just outside of Salt Lake City he led from 1990 until 1997.

I wonder what the odds are that he confessed to other Mormon men his crimes, but was allowed to ‘repent’? The Mormon church has a child rapist problem.

- Doc

[drumdude]

The stake presidents who called these bishops are complicit. Clearly, they must have masturbated, or else their spirit of discernment would have worked.