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Re: Faith! What's it good for? Absolutely nothing!

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:10 pm
by malkie
Nimrod wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:06 pm
malkie wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:01 pm

Even if, for the sake of argument, we accept that tenet, I can see no reason to suggest that that would not be possible for a rational and benevolent person to become an irrational and evil god.

It may be a bit like expecting to predict what kind of adult a baby may become, but without knowing what range of possibilities are involved in becoming an adult.

We cannot possibly know what changes may occur for a person to become a god whose ways, we are told, are not our ways. Rationality, to a god, may be entirely different from rationality as defined by a human.

For me, that makes an evil and irrational god completely conceivable.
Well, then for what are we tested by god in this 'mortal probation' before we'll be entrusted with this massive god power? Acting rationally or irrationally?
The church teaches, I believe, that we are tested for faith. As far as I can tell, from the church point of view, that may be completely independent of of rationality. That is, rationality per se is not tested for.

From my own experience I would say that the test tends towards (and certainly does not rule out) irrationality.

Re: Faith! What's it good for? Absolutely nothing!

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:14 pm
by Nimrod
malkie wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:10 pm
Nimrod wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:06 pm

Well, then for what are we tested by god in this 'mortal probation' before we'll be entrusted with this massive god power? Acting rationally or irrationally?
The church teaches, I believe, that we are tested for faith. As far as I can tell, from the church point of view, that may be completely independent of of rationality. That is, rationality per se is not tested for.

From my own experience I would say that the test tends towards (and certainly does not rule out) irrationality.
So in order to be entrusted with this god power in the hereafter, we must demonstrate that we do not act on evidence but on bare hope for which we do not have evidence? If I am going to be all knowing when I have the massive power, why do I need to demonstrate that I can act out of ignorance with my little measure of mortal power?

Re: Faith! What's it good for? Absolutely nothing!

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:28 pm
by malkie
Nimrod wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:14 pm
malkie wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:10 pm

The church teaches, I believe, that we are tested for faith. As far as I can tell, from the church point of view, that may be completely independent of of rationality. That is, rationality per se is not tested for.

From my own experience I would say that the test tends towards (and certainly does not rule out) irrationality.
So in order to be entrusted with this god power in the hereafter, we must demonstrate that we do not act on evidence but on bare hope for which we do not have evidence? If I am going to be all knowing when I have the massive power, why do I need to demonstrate that I can act out of ignorance with my little measure of mortal power?
As a non-believer (which is why I specify "from the church PoV", and "if we accept that tenet", etc.) I'm likely not the best person to justify what you are asking.

But I will still point out that you seem to be expecting some kind of rational argument. I don't think that there is a good basis for that expectation - which is (I believe) how we got into this exchange of ideas.

In the past, on this board, I've suggested this idea and have failed to see any reasonable (!!) rebuttal.

Re: Faith! What's it good for? Absolutely nothing!

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:09 pm
by Nimrod
Nimrod wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:14 pm

So in order to be entrusted with this god power in the hereafter, we must demonstrate that we do not act on evidence but on bare hope for which we do not have evidence? If I am going to be all knowing when I have the massive power, why do I need to demonstrate that I can act out of ignorance with my little measure of mortal power?
malkie wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:28 pm

As a non-believer (which is why I specify "from the church PoV", and "if we accept that tenet", etc.) I'm likely not the best person to justify what you are asking.

But I will still point out that you seem to be expecting some kind of rational argument. I don't think that there is a good basis for that expectation - which is (I believe) how we got into this exchange of ideas.

In the past, on this board, I've suggested this idea and have failed to see any reasonable (!!) rebuttal.
It seems to me to boil down to a loyalty/obedience test, and require that you not even have made a rational choice of to whom or what you will give this blind loyalty.

Re: Faith! What's it good for? Absolutely nothing!

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:13 am
by malkie
Nimrod wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:09 pm
Nimrod wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:14 pm

So in order to be entrusted with this god power in the hereafter, we must demonstrate that we do not act on evidence but on bare hope for which we do not have evidence? If I am going to be all knowing when I have the massive power, why do I need to demonstrate that I can act out of ignorance with my little measure of mortal power?
malkie wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:28 pm

As a non-believer (which is why I specify "from the church PoV", and "if we accept that tenet", etc.) I'm likely not the best person to justify what you are asking.

But I will still point out that you seem to be expecting some kind of rational argument. I don't think that there is a good basis for that expectation - which is (I believe) how we got into this exchange of ideas.

In the past, on this board, I've suggested this idea and have failed to see any reasonable (!!) rebuttal.
It seems to me to boil down to a loyalty/obedience test, and require that you not even have made a rational choice of to whom or what you will give this blind loyalty.
I feel fairly sure that a faithful believer would argue that analysis - or perhaps not. Perhaps some kind of Pascal's Wager might make such a choice seem rational.

We may have to wait for such a believer to weigh in.

Re: Faith! What's it good for? Absolutely nothing!

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:57 pm
by Meadowchik
Nimrod wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:49 pm
Meadowchik wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:52 pm
God and theism aside, humans have advanced by rejecting known options and seeking something more, something unknown and uncreated. I think faith is valuable when reality isn't good enough, and when through imagination we can make it better.
Sounds like god resides in the cinematic arts.
I'm an atheist so I'm speaking of faith without God, but anyway, faith resides anywhere humans step into the unknown armed with imagination. We do soon maths and all sciences, also politics and all kinds of human endeavours.

I like to refer to the classic Trolley Problem that presents us with two fixed choices. I posit that much of human advancement comes when a person sees such a binary and rejects it insisting on looking for and even creating Option C because it's better and elevates us further.

Re: Faith! What's it good for? Absolutely nothing!

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:34 pm
by Nimrod
Meadowchik wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:57 pm
Nimrod wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:49 pm

Sounds like god resides in the cinematic arts.
I'm an atheist so I'm speaking of faith without God, but anyway, faith resides anywhere humans step into the unknown armed with imagination. We do soon maths and all sciences, also politics and all kinds of human endeavours.

I like to refer to the classic Trolley Problem that presents us with two fixed choices. I posit that much of human advancement comes when a person sees such a binary and rejects it insisting on looking for and even creating Option C because it's better and elevates us further.
I perhaps should have been more explicit in the OP about it being theistic faith that I was raising for discussion.

Re: Faith! What's it good for? Absolutely nothing!

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:31 am
by Meadowchik
Nimrod wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:58 pm
In a post down thread in "Making Covenants," MG 2.0 observes
alas, it seems as though almost anything connected with faith has a fair amount of uncertainty mixed in.
It is repeated frequently by religionists that god favors those that act on mere faith over those that insist on knowing. In light of that, and MG 2.0's comment as quoted above, I am left with the question:

Why does god favor those that will act on 'a fair amount of uncertainty' than those who want proof? Why does god value those who act on 'a fair amount of uncertainty' over those that require higher degrees of assurety from facts and evidence? What is inherently better about those that act on less information than those that require more information?
One can easily restate this as comparing the benefits of acting on assurety Vs uncertainty. In other words the central question is still applicable to nontheistic decision processes. Not only that, it is more relatable to more people. Also it does not dismiss the detriment of poor nontheistic decisions or good theistic decisions.

The reality is that all humans face the dilemma of needing to act without complete information. We can all benefit from learning how to live and act even without fair amounts of assurances, god-fearing or not.

Re: Faith! What's it good for? Absolutely nothing!

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:36 pm
by Physics Guy
Meadowchik wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:31 am
One can easily restate this as comparing the benefits of acting on assurety Vs uncertainty. In other words the central question is still applicable to nontheistic decision processes. Not only that, it is more relatable to more people. ... The reality is that all humans face the dilemma of needing to act without complete information. We can all benefit from learning how to live and act even without fair amounts of assurances, god-fearing or not.
I maybe started the focus on general rather than theistic faith, back on page 1, and I was really only thinking that if the question was why God might value faith, then it could be a start to consider why humans value faith. But I think the focus on general faith has kept going for Meadowchik's reasons. How to live and act with insufficient information is indeed a universal human problem.

I do still think that the general question is relevant to the specific one, and can make for a better discussion of religious faith. It's hard (for me at least) to see why a real God would be keen on people accepting any particular strong claims with weak evidence, and holding onto them as certain knowledge without considering any alternatives. So I don't see how there's much to discuss about that. It seems totally plausible to me, on the other hand, that a real God would want mortal creatures to be willing to act on insufficient information.

Exactly how might a real God want us to act that way? What limits on our faith would God accept, or even want? These are questions that could use some threshing out, as far as I am concerned.

Traditionally, at least, faith unto death has been honored as the best example of faith. If that means someone sacrificing their life for some cause in which they believe, then maybe that is the most extreme form of faith that could still be valuable. I mean, if somebody dying for something really did somehow achieve something wonderful, one might be awfully grateful to them for having enough faith to do it. On the other hand, though, I'm not at all sure that God would really want infinite patience in sustaining belief without evidence, if one has given ample opportunity for evidence to appear. There's got to be a point, it seems to me, past which even God is going to say, "Dude, I made reality. Face it."

Re: Faith! What's it good for? Absolutely nothing!

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:03 pm
by Fence Sitter
I see no evidence that a God favors the faithful. Just look at Jewish history. If that is God's way of showing His favor, thanks but no thanks. I have sat in enough F&T meetings listening to really horrible stories about pain, suffering, and tragedy, that ended up with "oh but I got better" or "God protected this one person over all the others in the car who died" and so on, to realize the faith usually means see only the positive evidence for God's favor while conveniently ignoring the other side.