Mormon assertions that science can't touch their truth claims

[drumdude]

FairMormon released the following video today, "Creation and Evolution":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_D_PO1_55k

In it, the Mormon doctor giving the talk makes this stunning claim:

Science uses what is called methodological naturalism. And that's a good thing.

In science we make an agreement. We only talk about things that everybody can see, sense, or measure publicly. That's the deal. That's the starting agreement that we all make.

I'm a doctor. I practice in a predominantly LDS community and something kind of interesting; I don't know if president Wilde ever has this happen. But people will sometimes come to see me about a problem you know, and we'll talk about it.

And we'll say, "okay this is what we're going to do. We're going to order these tests or I'm going to do this scan" and then I send them away.

And then they come back to see me in about a week or something and they'll be very almost sheepish.

And they'll say, "Well, I'm really sorry."

And I'll say, "Why are you sorry?"

And they'll say, "Well, I got a blessing and the problem I came to you about it's all gone."

Does that ever happen to you? Yeah. And so, I always say that's the problem with practicing medicine with members of the church. Is because God keeps screwing up the natural history of illness. Now I am very convinced those things happen but there's no way that I could convince somebody else.

There's no evidence I can show. You know I can't prove that. And so me and all my doctor colleagues and all the scientists out there we basically make this agreement. We say look we're only going to argue we're only going to present evidence that everybody can look at. Because why should they believe me? And that's a fair question, what do I know about it. You know it might be enough to convince me but why I should have convince them? Okay so that's methodological naturalism. Maybe we also agree not to talk about God or magic or Supernatural forces.

Did you catch that trick? He's just convinced the audience that these magical beliefs about priesthood blessings are outside the ability of science to detect. To be clear: he claims Priesthood blessings are having a real effect. Mormon God is intervening in a real way, medically. For "members of the church", in particular. But science is not able to detect this. He just asserts that.

I think anyone who thinks about this critically for more than 5 seconds can see the problem with that assertion. You can do some very simple statistical analysis to see if there are any anomalies among latter-day saints that fit this doctor's experiences.

It's very easy for people, especially believing Mormons, to just accept his assertion at face value. Anywhere the truth claims of Mormonism conflict with science they just claim science has no ability to say anything about the subject. It's quickly becoming a cornerstone of modern Mormon apologetics.

[malkie]

There's an interesting reddit thread from a few years back on the subject of priesthood blessings:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Mormon/comment ... ficacy_of/

Here's a personal piece of non-data.

I was once in a ward in which a member had been diagnosed with a degenerative disease with fairly obvious symptoms. I'm pretty sure that they had received one of more blessings from individuals, including, perhaps, their father, who was a ward stalwart. However, the disease continued to progress.

One Sunday, the Stake President attended the EQ class, and called in the High Priests to join us. We all gathered around the person, in a prayer circle, while the SP pronounced a blessing on the person that they would be healed. Either before or after - I don't remember which - the SP spoke about how the combined power of the priesthood holders of the ward would effect the cure. There was, as I recall, nothing about the member having the faith not to be healed, or anything of that sort. We were hyped up. People talked about the soon-to-be miracle cure.

Each Sunday we could all see that there was no cure, and by the time I moved from the ward, a few years after the blessing, the disease had progressed to the point of serious disability. Years later there was still no improvement.

By the way, this was a condition in which spontaneous regression is known to occur.

I guess it just wasn't meant to be, but I heard nobody voice that possibility at the time of the blessing.

[Res Ipsa]

FairMormon released the following video today, "Creation and Evolution":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_D_PO1_55k

In it, the Mormon doctor giving the talk makes this stunning claim:

Science uses what is called methodological naturalism. And that's a good thing.

In science we make an agreement. We only talk about things that everybody can see, sense, or measure publicly. That's the deal. That's the starting agreement that we all make.

I'm a doctor. I practice in a predominantly LDS community and something kind of interesting; I don't know if president Wilde ever has this happen. But people will sometimes come to see me about a problem you know, and we'll talk about it.

And we'll say, "okay this is what we're going to do. We're going to order these tests or I'm going to do this scan" and then I send them away.

And then they come back to see me in about a week or something and they'll be very almost sheepish.

And they'll say, "Well, I'm really sorry."

And I'll say, "Why are you sorry?"

And they'll say, "Well, I got a blessing and the problem I came to you about it's all gone."

Does that ever happen to you? Yeah. And so, I always say that's the problem with practicing medicine with members of the church. Is because God keeps screwing up the natural history of illness. Now I am very convinced those things happen but there's no way that I could convince somebody else.

There's no evidence I can show. You know I can't prove that. And so me and all my doctor colleagues and all the scientists out there we basically make this agreement. We say look we're only going to argue we're only going to present evidence that everybody can look at. Because why should they believe me? And that's a fair question, what do I know about it. You know it might be enough to convince me but why I should have convince them? Okay so that's methodological naturalism. Maybe we also agree not to talk about God or magic or Supernatural forces.

Did you catch that trick? He's just convinced the audience that these magical beliefs about priesthood blessings are outside the ability of science to detect. To be clear: he claims Priesthood blessings are having a real effect. Mormon God is intervening in a real way, medically. For "members of the church", in particular. But science is not able to detect this. He just asserts that.

I think anyone who thinks about this critically for more than 5 seconds can see the problem with that assertion. You can do some very simple statistical analysis to see if there are any anomalies among latter-day saints that fit this doctor's experiences.

It's very easy for people, especially believing Mormons, to just accept his assertion at face value. Anywhere the truth claims of Mormonism conflict with science they just claim science has no ability to say anything about the subject. It's quickly becoming a cornerstone of modern Mormon apologetics.

I guess it’s what you get when you combine the placebo effect with confirmation bias.

[Res Ipsa]

There's an interesting reddit thread from a few years back on the subject of priesthood blessings:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Mormon/comment ... ficacy_of/

Here's a personal piece of non-data.

I was once in a ward in which a member had been diagnosed with a degenerative disease with fairly obvious symptoms. I'm pretty sure that they had received one of more blessings from individuals, including, perhaps, their father, who was a ward stalwart. However, the disease continued to progress.

One Sunday, the Stake President attended the EQ class, and called in the High Priests to join us. We all gathered around the person, in a prayer circle, while the SP pronounced a blessing on the person that they would be healed. Either before or after - I don't remember which - the SP spoke about how the combined power of the priesthood holders of the ward would effect the cure. There was, as I recall, nothing about the member having the faith not to be healed, or anything of that sort. We were hyped up. People talked about the soon-to-be miracle cure.

Each Sunday we could all see that there was no cure, and by the time I moved from the ward, a few years after the blessing, the disease had progressed to the point of serious disability. Years later there was still no improvement.

By the way, this was a condition in which spontaneous regression is known to occur.

I guess it just wasn't meant to be, but I heard nobody voice that possibility at the time of the blessing.

When my sister has cancer, she received a blessing from some church official and was promised that she would live to raise her children. (Her youngest was five or six.) She died months later. I guess cancer doesn’t respect the placebo effect.

[drumdude]

The church official was probably a masturbator.

[malkie]

There's an interesting reddit thread from a few years back on the subject of priesthood blessings:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Mormon/comment ... ficacy_of/

Here's a personal piece of non-data.

I was once in a ward in which a member had been diagnosed with a degenerative disease with fairly obvious symptoms. I'm pretty sure that they had received one of more blessings from individuals, including, perhaps, their father, who was a ward stalwart. However, the disease continued to progress.

One Sunday, the Stake President attended the EQ class, and called in the High Priests to join us. We all gathered around the person, in a prayer circle, while the SP pronounced a blessing on the person that they would be healed. Either before or after - I don't remember which - the SP spoke about how the combined power of the priesthood holders of the ward would effect the cure. There was, as I recall, nothing about the member having the faith not to be healed, or anything of that sort. We were hyped up. People talked about the soon-to-be miracle cure.

Each Sunday we could all see that there was no cure, and by the time I moved from the ward, a few years after the blessing, the disease had progressed to the point of serious disability. Years later there was still no improvement.

By the way, this was a condition in which spontaneous regression is known to occur.

I guess it just wasn't meant to be, but I heard nobody voice that possibility at the time of the blessing.

When my sister has cancer, she received a blessing from some church official and was promised that she would live to raise her children. (Her youngest was five or six.) She died months later. I guess cancer doesn’t respect the placebo effect.

Sorry, Res - I hope your family is recovering, or has recovered in some way, from the loss of your sister. Sending good vibes in your general direction - wherever that is

[drumdude]

Side note, is it a common undoctrinal belief among members that a higher ranking church official gives better and more effective blessings?

[Rivendale]

Side note, is it a common undoctrinal belief among members that a higher ranking church official gives better and more effective blessings?

RFM has the iconic statement that if President Eyring is coming to give you a blessing, run like hell.

[drumdude]

Side note, is it a common undoctrinal belief among members that a higher ranking church official gives better and more effective blessings?

RFM has the iconic statement that if President Eyring is coming to give you a blessing, run like hell.

[Rivendale]

RFM has the iconic statement that if President Eyring is coming to give you a blessing, run like hell.

Speaking of laughing.