“Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

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Philo Sofee
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by Philo Sofee »

It's amazing that neither side sees baptisms due to their so-called "evidences." I do believe you have a great point, it is power politics now not helping people come to Christ. And the leaders wallowing in their mountain of dough don't seem overly concerned, they have it made in the shade, so... if Jesus comes soon or not, no sweat for them. What a conundrum.

It seems both sides appear to actually believe it is a matter of saving your souls to believe in one or the other. Rather pathetic from the outside, yet they can't see it.
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Kishkumen
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

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As mentioned earlier in the thread, I think it’s less about the larp, and more the politics of combatting far-Right schismatic movements in the Church.
I get this. I remember when Bokovoy was unhappy about Heartlander stuff, and it was naturally for this reason. He just came out and stated it. These guys spend too much time on the LARP and too little time on the ethno-nationalist part. If they applied more effort to educating their readers on things that matter, we would not be treated to these bizarre fights over the location of Cockaigne. So maybe I should just quiet down and pop more popcorn.
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malkie
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by malkie »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:36 pm
It's amazing that neither side sees baptisms due to their so-called "evidences." I do believe you have a great point, it is power politics now not helping people come to Christ. And the leaders wallowing in their mountain of dough don't seem overly concerned, they have it made in the shade, so... if Jesus comes soon or not, no sweat for them. What a conundrum.

It seems both sides appear to actually believe it is a matter of saving your souls to believe in one or the other. Rather pathetic from the outside, yet they can't see it.
But the Meso-American "evidence", in the form of "Ancient America Speaks", may actually have helped to convince some people in the 1970s. I cannot be sure, because of the time gap, but I suspect that some of the little success of missionary work in Scotland in that time period may have been due to the BYU movie presentations, made using the research of multiple PhDs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I9LDLcIh9g

I still have "feelings" while watching, but now I know better than to accept anyone's assurances that they are the results of the Holy Ghost testifying to my spirit of the truthfulness of the church. :o

A couple of fun quote from the comments:
Simon Southerton, 6 years ago, wrote:I used to love showing this film to investigators when I was a missionary back in the 80s. I felt very strong emotions that at the time convinced me that the Book of Mormon was true.

Mormon scholars now distance themselves from all of the major claims in this video. The Quetzalcoatl myth existed centuries before Christ, Stele 5 is not a representation of Lehi's tree of life and Native Americans did not smelt bronze. Then recently I discovered that many hundreds of Mayans have had their DNA tested. Not a drop of Hebrew DNA was found. They are all descended from Asian ancestors.

What a difference 35 years makes.
Randy Jordan, 6 years ago, wrote:At the 15-minute mark, this video alleges that a large stone box "much like those in Latin America" was discovered in 1823 on a hill near Palmyra, New York. That's a fascinating archaelogical [sic] discovery! Where can we read about it in archaelogical [sic] journals? Which archaelogists [sic] have studied this box, and what conclusions have they made about it? Where can we see photos of this amazing stone box?
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canpakes
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by canpakes »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:27 pm
As mentioned earlier in the thread, I think it’s less about the larp, and more the politics of combatting far-Right schismatic movements in the Church. The Heartlander movement has been labeled as a:
brand of belief [that] is exclusivist, fundamentalist, closed-minded, nationalistic, jingoistic, and deeply lacking in responsible scholarship and science.
Hmm. I’m failing to see a difference between the Heartland model and the Mesoamerican model, with respect to most of that statement.

Maybe DCP has something in his back pocket that can help demonstrate a difference?
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Moksha
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by Moksha »

The Heartlanders could have all their questions answered if they would tour the Nephite Exhibit at the BYU Museum of American History. See all the proofs on display and then reconsider their position.
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canpakes
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by canpakes »

Moksha wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:44 am
The Heartlanders could have all their questions answered if they would tour the Nephite Exhibit at the BYU Museum of American History. See all the proofs on display and then reconsider their position.
We could ask National Geographic to weigh in. ; )
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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

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canpakes wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:02 am
Moksha wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:44 am
The Heartlanders could have all their questions answered if they would tour the Nephite Exhibit at the BYU Museum of American History. See all the proofs on display and then reconsider their position.
We could ask National Geographic to weigh in. ; )
Or the Smithsonian:

https://www.mrm.org/smithsonian#:~:text ... the%20book.
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canpakes
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by canpakes »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:05 am
canpakes wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:02 am
We could ask National Geographic to weigh in. ; )
Or the Smithsonian:

https://www.mrm.org/smithsonian#:~:text ... the%20book.
We’re going to have to wait for the ‘evidences’ display within the Church’s planned JosephSmithsonian Museum, to be built in the remodeled Temple Square.
Philo Sofee
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by Philo Sofee »

canpakes wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:19 am
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:05 am


Or the Smithsonian:

https://www.mrm.org/smithsonian#:~:text ... the%20book.
We’re going to have to wait for the ‘evidences’ display within the Church’s planned JosephSmithsonian Museum, to be built in the remodeled Temple Square.
:lol:
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by drumdude »

“DCP” wrote: Some continue to insist that John Sorenson’s “limited geographical model” or “limited Tehuantepec model” was devised in a desperate bid to so shrink the Lehite and Jaredites demographically and geographically that they would be invisible to the analysis of Amerindian DNA and impervious to genetic research. But this is sheer uninformed (and arguably defamatory) silliness.
“Thomas Murphy” wrote: Before identifying points of disagreement, I think it worthwhile to review the striking points of agreement between myself and other LDS scholars, espe- cially those associated with the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Re- search (FAIR) and FARMS. Trent Stephens and D. Jeffrey Meldrum (LDS biol- ogists at Idaho State University), Scott Woodward, Bill Bradshaw, and Michael Whiting (LDS biologists at Brigham Young University), Brant Gardner and Kevin Barney (LDS authors writing for FAIR), and Jeff Lindsay (LDS scientist maintaining his own web site) all agree that current genetic evidence indicates the principal ancestors of the American Indians came from Northeast Asia rather than ancient Israel. They accept the validity of the genetic evidence, my basic interpretations of it, and acknowledge that it poses fundamental problems for the traditional understanding of the Book of Mormon as the history of American Indians.7 Daniel Peterson, former chairman for the Board of Trustees at FARMS, even endorses the label "Galileo Event" as an appropriate description of the implications of genetic research for Book of Mormon Studies.8


An apparent consensus on some central issues of debate about the Book of Mormon appears to be emerging. Most Book of Mormon scholars today, includ- ing those associated with FAIR and FARMS, reject a literal reading of the Book of Mormon and "agree that Nephites and Lamanites never actually rode horses, traveled in chariots, used steel swords, raised cattle, or ate wheat."9 We basically agree that the English text of the Book of Mormon does not accurately describe the flora and fauna of ancient America in Central America or elsewhere. We agree that the population growth attested in the Book of Mormon is mathemati- cally impossible for groups of the size and make-up described in the text and that the descriptions of distances traveled in the scripture are not consistent with a population that spread to "cover the face of the whole earth" on the American continents "from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east" (see Hel. 3:8). We agree that ethnonyms like Lamanite from the Book of Mor- mon can have social and political meanings, in addition to genealogical ones. We have reached a virtual consensus that the traditional interpretation of the Book of Mormon as the history of the American Indians has been thoroughly discredited by the discoveries of anthropology, biology, and history. Thus, we would seem to agree that the teachings about Israelite and Lehite ancestry of American Indians espoused by every LDS prophet since Joseph Smith must nec- essarily be disregarded as incorrect.

4. Ibid.,68.

5. Ibid.

6. Despite my request that he stop misrepresenting my research, Dr. Michael Whiting of
Brigham Young University continues to distort my conclusions, setting up a straw man, which he then attacks for greater effect. This is most evident in his exaggerated claims that I have announced "that modern DNA research has conclusively proved that the Book of Mormon is false and that Joseph Smith was a fraud," that I hold "the naïve notion that DNA provides infallible evidence," and that I tout my conclusion as being "assumption free" (Michael F. Whiting, "DNA and the Book of Mormon: A Phylogenetic Perspective," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12, no. 1 [2003]: 24-25, 35). To the contrary, I have only maintained that a nineteenth-century origin of the Book of Mormon is the best explanation of existing historical and scientific data. The scripture may be historical fic- tion and still contain inspired spiritual truths emanating from a prophet of God.

7. Trent Stephens, D. Jeffrey Meldrum, and Thomas Murphy, "DNA and Lamanite Identity: A Galileo Event," panel discussion chaired by Brent Lee Metcalfe, Salt Lake City Sunstone Sympo- sium, August 2001; KUER Radio West, "Science and Foundations of the Book of Mormon," inter- view with Terryl L. Givens, Thomas Murphy, and Scott Woodward, hosted by Doug Fabrizio, Salt Lake City, Utah, 19 December 2002, retrieved electronically April 12, 2003 from http://audio. kuer.org:8000/file/rwl21902.mp3, transcript available at http://www.fairlds.org/; Bill Bradshaw, re- spondent to "Sin, Skin, and Seed: Mistakes of Men in the Book of Mormon," by Thomas W. Mur- phy, Salt Lake City Sunstone Symposium, August 2002; Michael F. Whiting, "Does DNA Evidence Refute the Authenticity of the Book of Mormon," streaming video of lecture at BYU on 29 January 2003, retrieved electronically 11 April 2003 from http://farms.byu.edu; Kevin L. Barney, "A Brief Review of Murphy and Southerton's Galileo Event," retrieved electronically 26 June 2003 from http://www.fairlds.org; Brant Gardner, "The Tempest in a Teapot: DNA Studies and the Book of Mormon," retrieved electronically 26 June 2003 from http://www.fairlds.org; Jeff Meldrum, "Chil- dren of Lehi: DNA and the Book of Mormon," Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research Conference, 8 August 2003; Jeff Lindsay, "Does DNA Evidence Refute the Book of Mormon?" re- trieved electronically 25 August 2003 from http://www.jefflindsay.com/; Whiting, "DNA and the Book of Mormon," 24-35. D. Jeffrey Meldrum and Trent D. Stephens, "Who Are the Children of Lehi?" Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12, no. 1 (2003): 38-51.

8. Daniel Peterson, "Random Reflections on the Passing Scene," Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research Conference, 8 August 2003.

9. Murphy, "Lamanite Genesis," 61-62
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... 04_129.pdf
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