“Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

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Res Ipsa
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by Res Ipsa »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:30 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:18 pm


Link didn't work for me.
https://www.nevillenevilleland.com/

It’s the March 15th post which is queued at the top right now.

- Doc
Thanks. Works perfectly.
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by Marcus »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:55 pm
It’s clear the Mopologists are simply employing the Hill Cumorah strategy with regard to DNA. They don’t have to deny the DNA evidence (Well. Some argue DNA eViDeNcE iS uNrELiAbLe), they just have to tuck it away so it ‘can’t be found’. Just as the Hill Cumorah is both present and ‘unfindable’, so is the genetic and archaeological evidence of Book of Mormon peoples.

eta: In a bit of synchronicity Mike Parker, a.k.a. Peter Pan, the proprietor of the Neville-Neville Land hate blog, posted this utterly retarded apologetic yesterday:

https://www.nevillenevilleland.com/2023 ... rtant.html

- Doc
This was a confusing entry to read. So, Mike Parker seems to be arguing that the photos were included in the older B of M editions to support the meso american theory, as per his earlier post:
However, they do clearly demonstrate that, since at least the early 1960s, leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have considered Mesoamerica and South America to be potential locations for Book of Mormon events.

https://www.nevillenevilleland.com/2023 ... ormon.html
The first of the photos was of the NY hill cumorah, with the caption, “where Joseph Smith obtained the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated.”

But now, in the entry Doc linked to, Parker is arguing that while the pictures of meso-America support the concept of a meso-American location, the picture of hill cumorah does NOT support the concept that that is the hill Cumorah from the Book of Mormon. He gives a lot of explanation, but bottom line to me is that he is logically inconsistent. If the pictures of meso america are meant to support a meso american location, then the picture of NY hill cumorah should be interpreted to support the NY location as hill cumorah.

If it takes a lot of finagling and manipulation of language to argue that the Ny Hill Cumorah picture doesn't support a NY hill cumorah, he can't then argue that the same fingling and manipulation of language is out of bounds for the meso american pictures, and that the mere existence of them in the published book implies a leadership belief in meso american theory.

I know there is a lot more to the arguments, I am just pointing out he is using two different standards of interpretation and logic to get the response he wants from one set of pictures, and an opposite response from the other set of pictures.
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by Res Ipsa »

Marcus wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:07 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:55 pm
It’s clear the Mopologists are simply employing the Hill Cumorah strategy with regard to DNA. They don’t have to deny the DNA evidence (Well. Some argue DNA eViDeNcE iS uNrELiAbLe), they just have to tuck it away so it ‘can’t be found’. Just as the Hill Cumorah is both present and ‘unfindable’, so is the genetic and archaeological evidence of Book of Mormon peoples.

eta: In a bit of synchronicity Mike Parker, a.k.a. Peter Pan, the proprietor of the Neville-Neville Land hate blog, posted this utterly retarded apologetic yesterday:

https://www.nevillenevilleland.com/2023 ... rtant.html

- Doc
This was a confusing entry to read. So, Mike Parker seems to be arguing that the photos were included in the older B of M editions to support the meso american theory, as per his earlier post:
However, they do clearly demonstrate that, since at least the early 1960s, leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have considered Mesoamerica and South America to be potential locations for Book of Mormon events.

https://www.nevillenevilleland.com/2023 ... ormon.html
The first of the photos was of the NY hill cumorah, with the caption, “where Joseph Smith obtained the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated.”

But now, in the entry Doc linked to, Parker is arguing that while the pictures of meso-America support the concept of a meso-American location, the picture of hill cumorah does NOT support the concept that that is the hill Cumorah from the Book of Mormon. He gives a lot of explanation, but bottom line to me is that he is logically inconsistent. If the pictures of meso america are meant to support a meso american location, then the picture of NY hill cumorah should be interpreted to support the NY location as hill cumorah.

If it takes a lot of finagling and manipulation of language to argue that the Ny Hill Cumorah picture doesn't support a NY hill cumorah, he can't then argue that the same fingling and manipulation of language is out of bounds for the meso american pictures, and that the mere existence of them in the published book implies a leadership belief in meso american theory.

I know there is a lot more to the arguments, I am just pointing out he is using two different standards of interpretation and logic to get the response he wants from one set of pictures, and an opposite response from the other set of pictures.
I think you may be being too fair to Parker. (Shocker, huh?) I remember those Books of Mormon. When I was in seminary (early '70s), we were taught the hemispheric model. So, yes, the meso American ruins were used as evidence supporting the Book of Mormon. Heck, I attended one of those silly tree of life stone firesides. But the hemispheric model is not the LGT, even though they share evidence. It was a long time ago, but I don't recall being taught two Cumorahs or the LGT at the time. Parker appears to be conflating the LGT with the hemispheric model. It's hard for me to understand how that could be an accident.
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

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There are lots of problems with Parker’s post. For one thing, the official Church position is that it *does not have* an official position. If that is true, then what’s the point of bringing up the Book of Mormon inserts? Parker is actually undercutting the Brethren by saying, in effect, “No, the Brethren are lying when they say they don’t take any position, because see? There are images of Meso America in these old BoMs! That means they might support the LGT!”

Another problem has to do with the “authority” of the non-textual (and non-canonical) elements of those old BoMs. Does Parker think that A. Friberg’s depiction of “ripped” Nephi is a reflection of what Dallin Oaks and Boyd Packer felt was the reality? Does Parker think they had injectable steroids back then?

And, of course, there is the First Watson Letter which continues to bedevil the Mopologists. That letter is a *direct statement* from a person in a position of authority, stating that the Heartlanders’ views are correct—or, at least, that they are more correct than the Mopologists’. Saying that these old BoMs “might imply” that the Brethren “might be open” to a Meso American setting is about as weak of an argument as I can imagine. I guess that’s the best we can expect from someone who couldn’t hack it at Dixie State? At least he can take heart that Dr. Peterson thinks he’s “sadly necessary.”
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by Tom »

The latest from the Neville Obsession Board (NOB):
Neville: "I’d welcome an honest exchange and debate, of course. But not with a pseudonymous fool."

Peter Pan: "If that’s a proposition, then I accept. In fact, I’m willing to reveal my actual identity in return for 'an honest exchange and debate' with you, Brother Neville. Consider that an offer."
(emphasis in original)

That's not much of an offer, Brother Pan.
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

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Tom wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:48 pm
The latest from the Neville Obsession Board (NOB):
Neville: "I’d welcome an honest exchange and debate, of course. But not with a pseudonymous fool."

Peter Pan: "If that’s a proposition, then I accept. In fact, I’m willing to reveal my actual identity in return for 'an honest exchange and debate' with you, Brother Neville. Consider that an offer."
(emphasis in original)

That's not much of an offer, Brother Pan.

He wants to rewrite history. “They didn’t leak my identity, I willingly revealed it!”

Typical Mopologist dishonesty.
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by Kishkumen »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:55 am
There are lots of problems with Parker’s post. For one thing, the official Church position is that it *does not have* an official position. If that is true, then what’s the point of bringing up the Book of Mormon inserts? Parker is actually undercutting the Brethren by saying, in effect, “No, the Brethren are lying when they say they don’t take any position, because see? There are images of Meso America in these old BoMs! That means they might support the LGT!”

Another problem has to do with the “authority” of the non-textual (and non-canonical) elements of those old BoMs. Does Parker think that A. Friberg’s depiction of “ripped” Nephi is a reflection of what Dallin Oaks and Boyd Packer felt was the reality? Does Parker think they had injectable steroids back then?

And, of course, there is the First Watson Letter which continues to bedevil the Mopologists. That letter is a *direct statement* from a person in a position of authority, stating that the Heartlanders’ views are correct—or, at least, that they are more correct than the Mopologists’. Saying that these old BoMs “might imply” that the Brethren “might be open” to a Meso American setting is about as weak of an argument as I can imagine. I guess that’s the best we can expect from someone who couldn’t hack it at Dixie State? At least he can take heart that Dr. Peterson thinks he’s “sadly necessary.”
All excellent and correct observations.
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by Doctor Scratch »

One other thing I'll add: the First Watson Letter frankly supports the Heartlanders' position. The 2nd Watson Letter, which the Mopologists lied about repeatedly (and there are loads of inaccuracies about it on FAIR's website), supports the idea that the Church *does not* take an official position. So these are arguments about Book of Mormon geography that the Church has officially "endorsed" in one way or another:

--That the "real" Cumorah is in New York, and that the events of the Book of Mormon (such as the final Nephite/Lamanite battle) took place there as well.
--That the Church does not take any official stance.

Do you know what argument the Church has *never* formally endorsed? The Mopologists' LGT/Meso American model. The best somebody like Parker can come up with are non-canonical pictures in these old BoMs. Even the 2nd Watson Letter doesn't support their ideas: it takes a completely neutral stance. Meanwhile, Midgley has admitted that they had to wait for Elder Petersen to die before they could begin publishing material on the Meso American model, so, really, it seems to me that the Heartlanders have the edge in terms of "official" ecclesiastical endorsements of their views.
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

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Tom wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:48 pm
The latest from the Neville Obsession Board (NOB):
Neville: "I’d welcome an honest exchange and debate, of course. But not with a pseudonymous fool."

Peter Pan: "If that’s a proposition, then I accept. In fact, I’m willing to reveal my actual identity in return for 'an honest exchange and debate' with you, Brother Neville. Consider that an offer."
(emphasis in original)

That's not much of an offer, Brother Pan.
Brother Pan? Isn’t that Mike Parker, who resides in Hurricane, Utah, and teaches ‘adult religion classes’? You know, hate blogger Mike Parker who regularly trashes fellow Latter-day Saints over fairly niche doctrinal opinions?

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: “Peter Pan” is Unmasked as Mike Parker

Post by malkie »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:38 pm
One other thing I'll add: the First Watson Letter frankly supports the Heartlanders' position. The 2nd Watson Letter, which the Mopologists lied about repeatedly (and there are loads of inaccuracies about it on FAIR's website), supports the idea that the Church *does not* take an official position. So these are arguments about Book of Mormon geography that the Church has officially "endorsed" in one way or another:

--That the "real" Cumorah is in New York, and that the events of the Book of Mormon (such as the final Nephite/Lamanite battle) took place there as well.
--That the Church does not take any official stance.

Do you know what argument the Church has *never* formally endorsed? The Mopologists' LGT/Meso American model. The best somebody like Parker can come up with are non-canonical pictures in these old BoMs. Even the 2nd Watson Letter doesn't support their ideas: it takes a completely neutral stance. Meanwhile, Midgley has admitted that they had to wait for Elder Petersen to die before they could begin publishing material on the Meso American model, so, really, it seems to me that the Heartlanders have the edge in terms of "official" ecclesiastical endorsements of their views.
Might I suggest a slight modification?

the First Watson Letter is an accurate description - it did indeed come from the desk of F Michael Watson, Secretary to the First Presidency, and was typed on First Presidency letterhead.

But there is no reason at all to describe the fax from Carla Ogden as a Second Watson Letter - - it did not come from the desk of F Michael Watson, Secretary to the First Presidency, and was not even typed on First Presidency letterhead. I'm disinclined to grace it with such a description.

Nobody, as far as I know, has ever produced a second letter on the topic from Watson.
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