Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

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Markk
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Markk »

Rivendale wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:01 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:33 pm
Thanks, Markk, for telling your story. I enjoy reading other people’s stories because it reminds me that the most important thing about the church isn’t the nonsense published in the interpreter, it’s the impact on real people. And the utter lack of basic compassion represented by the old school F.A.R.M.S. crowd is a cancer. When faithful members reach the place you were in - sending e-mails and letters to leadership and academics - they are suffering. Peterson’s mockery and Midgely’s insinuation are inexcusable.

But the worst is the complete disrespect shown with regard to your privacy. I was 19 when I left, and my dad asked me as a favor To stay on the rolls because of hurt that formally leaving would cause his mother. I knew how closely the church tracked members, and I did not trust the church to keep anything confidential, so I waited until she passed before requesting name removal. Even though I didn’t trust them, I never imagined the extent to which the church violated confidences, resulting in inexcusable damage to people and families. Reading other people’s stories was a real eye opener to me.
Wouldn't the parents know from tithing settlement? Isn't there a children of record spot on that document?
I have no idea about that. I was 34 at the time. I received a letter from my SP saying I had 30 days to repent, or the record would be removed. It was not long after that I got the call from my dad, so I doubt it, but who knows. I am from deep pioneer roots, 5th & 6th generation all 4 sides, and last time I counted I had around 13 sets of G,GG,or GGG grandparents that were polygamists; meaning I have family and friends all over the place that might have found out and called my father. My maternal GF had his second anointing, maybe he snitched me off from the CK.
Markk
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Markk »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:44 pm
Markk wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:20 pm
To be 100% accurate about what I said about Lou; it was not actually a letter I wrote to FARMs, but an e-mail from my first computer, a 2nd hand 286 my father-in-law gave us. We had dial up, one of those printers with the paper with the holes you need to tear off.

It was about the time I finally "got it"...I was writing letters to the council of the twelve asking questions, and I sent an email to DCP asking question we would probably laugh at today. Anyways, he wrote me back and said he shared my e-mail and questions to one of his classes and that "they got a laugh"...then Lou sent me the "because of the Beer" response.

I actually received a few letters back from the church, from the executive secretary of the twelve, if I remember correctly his last name was "Hartley," he was probably a 70. The answers were mostly with Ensign or Era pages printed with "answers" highlighted with a highlighter. I remember one question I asked was, "Is there a signed original account of the 11 witnesses?" I received an answer that said that there was not, mice and water damage must have destroyed them.

*8 Years later, or so, I wrote a letter to the 12 asking to have my name removed. I did not want to go through my old stake in that I did not want to hurt my parents. After no luck and several letters, I final wrote back and said if they did not do it, I was going to go to the local newspaper, the "Redlands Daily Facts," and tell my story about trying to get my named removed. Bingo, I received a letter from none-other than, Russel M. Ballard, stating that they normally do not answer letters but that he was going to send it to my SP. I then sent a letter to him to keep it quite because I did not want my parents to know. But a few weeks later I got a call from my dad asking me why I wanted to hurt my mom so much. I am not sure if the SP snitched me out, but some a-hole did.

A sidenote...The church dedicated a Temple in Redlands a few years later, so the church did not want any bad press for sure.
I am not surprised the SP or someone told your parents. Guilt is a tried and true method of manipulation and has prevented many from straying over the years, I'm sure. So, why not use it here? They had a feeling that supposedly surpasses so-called evidence or questions from apostates like the Tanners. Why not play on family and ridicule (DCP and Midge)? Ends justify means despite temporary harm in their minds.
So true. And I think that guilts played on me big time in that I could not even go to my parents and tell them my plans, and even today I have a sister I can't talk too openly about my journey, partly because of guilt I suppose.
Markk
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Markk »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:33 pm
Markk wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:20 pm
To be 100% accurate about what I said about Lou; it was not actually a letter I wrote to FARMs, but an e-mail from my first computer, a 2nd hand 286 my father-in-law gave us. We had dial up, one of those printers with the paper with the holes you need to tear off.

It was about the time I finally "got it"...I was writing letters to the council of the twelve asking questions, and I sent an email to DCP asking question we would probably laugh at today. Anyways, he wrote me back and said he shared my e-mail and questions to one of his classes and that "they got a laugh"...then Lou sent me the "because of the Beer" response.

I actually received a few letters back from the church, from the executive secretary of the twelve, if I remember correctly his last name was "Hartley," he was probably a 70. The answers were mostly with Ensign or Era pages printed with "answers" highlighted with a highlighter. I remember one question I asked was, "Is there a signed original account of the 11 witnesses?" I received an answer that said that there was not, mice and water damage must have destroyed them.

*8 Years later, or so, I wrote a letter to the 12 asking to have my name removed. I did not want to go through my old stake in that I did not want to hurt my parents. After no luck and several letters, I final wrote back and said if they did not do it, I was going to go to the local newspaper, the "Redlands Daily Facts," and tell my story about trying to get my named removed. Bingo, I received a letter from none-other than, Russel M. Ballard, stating that they normally do not answer letters but that he was going to send it to my SP. I then sent a letter to him to keep it quite because I did not want my parents to know. But a few weeks later I got a call from my dad asking me why I wanted to hurt my mom so much. I am not sure if the SP snitched me out, but some a-hole did.

A sidenote...The church dedicated a Temple in Redlands a few years later, so the church did not want any bad press for sure.
Thanks, Markk, for telling your story. I enjoy reading other people’s stories because it reminds me that the most important thing about the church isn’t the nonsense published in the interpreter, it’s the impact on real people. And the utter lack of basic compassion represented by the old school F.A.R.M.S. crowd is a cancer. When faithful members reach the place you were in - sending e-mails and letters to leadership and academics - they are suffering. Peterson’s mockery and Midgely’s insinuation are inexcusable.

But the worst is the complete disrespect shown with regard to your privacy. I was 19 when I left, and my dad asked me as a favor To stay on the rolls because of hurt that formally leaving would cause his mother. I knew how closely the church tracked members, and I did not trust the church to keep anything confidential, so I waited until she passed before requesting name removal. Even though I didn’t trust them, I never imagined the extent to which the church violated confidences, resulting in inexcusable damage to people and families. Reading other people’s stories was a real eye opener to me.
I have an older brother who is agnostic. He served in Viet Nam and was deep in the crap. When he came home, he wanted nothing to do with the church, or God, for understandable reasons. He saw a friend get vaporized by a mortar round direct hit, which he is just now after all these years speaking about.

But to my point his home teacher, who was a BRM type of Mormon in our ward, a real a hole, went to his apartment after he was home for a year or so and told him if he wasn't going to be active, he could recommend he gets excommunicated. My brother about kicked his butt and threw him out of the apartment, and when my dad heard he about it from what I heard took it as far as he could up the chain...it was a big deal in our family, one of those big deals you know nothing about the details as a kid, I was about 16, but you can just feel the tension in the house, and see it in my parents being.

Why did you leave?
Res Ipsa
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Res Ipsa »

Markk wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 9:31 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:33 pm
Thanks, Markk, for telling your story. I enjoy reading other people’s stories because it reminds me that the most important thing about the church isn’t the nonsense published in the interpreter, it’s the impact on real people. And the utter lack of basic compassion represented by the old school F.A.R.M.S. crowd is a cancer. When faithful members reach the place you were in - sending e-mails and letters to leadership and academics - they are suffering. Peterson’s mockery and Midgely’s insinuation are inexcusable.

But the worst is the complete disrespect shown with regard to your privacy. I was 19 when I left, and my dad asked me as a favor To stay on the rolls because of hurt that formally leaving would cause his mother. I knew how closely the church tracked members, and I did not trust the church to keep anything confidential, so I waited until she passed before requesting name removal. Even though I didn’t trust them, I never imagined the extent to which the church violated confidences, resulting in inexcusable damage to people and families. Reading other people’s stories was a real eye opener to me.
I have an older brother who is agnostic. He served in Viet Nam and was deep in the crap. When he came home, he wanted nothing to do with the church, or God, for understandable reasons. He saw a friend get vaporized by a mortar round direct hit, which he is just now after all these years speaking about.

But to my point his home teacher, who was a BRM type of Mormon in our ward, a real a hole, went to his apartment after he was home for a year or so and told him if he wasn't going to be active, he could recommend he gets excommunicated. My brother about kicked his butt and threw him out of the apartment, and when my dad heard he about it from what I heard took it as far as he could up the chain...it was a big deal in our family, one of those big deals you know nothing about the details as a kid, I was about 16, but you can just feel the tension in the house, and see it in my parents being.

Why did you leave?
I realized that the church wasn’t what it claimed to be. It was like a paradigm shift. Once I came to that realization, I couldn’t unrealized it. The process started with the Book of Abraham and ended work the Mormonism: Shadow or Reality.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
Philo Sofee
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Philo Sofee »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:11 am
Markk wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 9:31 pm
I have an older brother who is agnostic. He served in Viet Nam and was deep in the crap. When he came home, he wanted nothing to do with the church, or God, for understandable reasons. He saw a friend get vaporized by a mortar round direct hit, which he is just now after all these years speaking about.

But to my point his home teacher, who was a BRM type of Mormon in our ward, a real a hole, went to his apartment after he was home for a year or so and told him if he wasn't going to be active, he could recommend he gets excommunicated. My brother about kicked his butt and threw him out of the apartment, and when my dad heard he about it from what I heard took it as far as he could up the chain...it was a big deal in our family, one of those big deals you know nothing about the details as a kid, I was about 16, but you can just feel the tension in the house, and see it in my parents being.

Why did you leave?
I realized that the church wasn’t what it claimed to be. It was like a paradigm shift. Once I came to that realization, I couldn’t unrealized it. The process started with the Book of Abraham and ended work the Mormonism: Shadow or Reality.
Heh, I remember as an apologist I read Richard Van Wagoner's Mormon Polygamy, a History and recognized immediately I was in way, way, way the flip over my head, so I didn't dare do a deep dive in any manner and high tailed it over to the Book of Abraham. From the frying pan into the fire! I had no idea both items were absolutely deadly, so the book of Abraham did it for me, and now my far more in-depth reading into polygamy truly just seals the deal. I don't have Shadow or Reality in print, but know I can read it as a PDF, but I do have their "lesser work" The Changing World of Mormonism, and it is far and away vastly more than I was ever told as an apologist.

Of course, as a teenager, the Tanners were absolutely Son of Perdition forbidden, they were outer darkness personified to us Mormon youth, and I actually told Sandra when I got to do a little videoing with her (she ordained me a knight of Utah Lighthouse!) that her very name caused me to shake as a teenager she had been so badmouthed and vilified. Now, since the release of the church sponsored essays, her work stands so astonishingly powerful that the recent comment on John Dehlin's Mormon Stories rings true - "We won!" The Tanners actually did win the war! (NO ONE tell the apologists, it would crush them. Let them continue living in their base, lame fantasy). Everything they said in all the essays has been conceded on numerous subjects. Unbelievable! I suspect it was a calculated move on the church's part, realizing many would see the light and they would lose the thinkers, but it is not the thinkers they actually want, they want the obedient. The problem as I see it is, they miscalculated just how many FRICKIN THINKERS THERE WAS IN THE CHURCH WHO ARE LEAVING! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Markk
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Markk »

The first thing that really got me, was Joseph having a gun and shooting folks. Emotionally I had it drummed into my head he was a ‘type’of Christ, and basically went to his death like Christ went to the Cross. he having a gun shocked me.

I kind of skimmed over lots of things and never really dug into Money Digging and how it tied into the Book of Mormon translation…I mostly looked at doctrinal issues, and the BS that I could become a God of many worlds, yet I can’t even keep my garage clean for more than a week. But, when I started getting into money digging and folk magic, just recently, it opened up a whole new view of who Joseph Smith was as a person, and not just him, but his family, neighbors, and the original witnesses. For the last few months I just can’t get enough of it.
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Kishkumen »

Of course, we really don’t know what happened when Jesus was crucified. We have hagiographical accounts written decades after the fact. I don’t begrudge Smith his impulse to defend himself from an armed mob.
"It is . . . rare for scholars to comment on the claims of writers like Barker, for the simple reason that they are generally too ill informed . . . to spend time that might be employed more usefully in engaging people who actually know what they are talking about." ~Ron Huggins
Philo Sofee
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Philo Sofee »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:22 pm
Of course, we really don’t know what happened when Jesus was crucified. We have hagiographical accounts written decades after the fact. I don’t begrudge Smith his impulse to defend himself from an armed mob.
Agreed. It is the modern attempts to paint Joseph into a different person than he actually was that the friction gets created. Just let Joseph be Joseph, warts, guns, and all.
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