DiscussMormonism.com

Last night I watched this episode of Mormon Stories. It really brought my journey out of Mormonism around to full circle. I am finding it hard to find a description or words of how this episode made me feel, but I feel like it removed a big piece of the scare and guilt I have from being raised in a lie...a feeling of confirmation that it was worth all the tears, the hurting of family members by telling them truths they did not want to hear, and a selfish feeling of "winning."

There was a moment towards the end when Sandra said, "we won!" Speaking not only of the church having to come clean on the some of the very tough issues, but of the "Anti Women" that lead the charge of helping to make this happen. It was really an awesome moment for me in that my journey started out with "Shadow and Reality" and the Tanners, along with Fawn's Book.

It also painted a very bittersweet picture of Michael Quinn and Leonard Arrington, one that I have never felt in reading about their lives. Michael was truly a walking contradiction.

I really recommend this episode to some of the veterans here, and hope you get the same from it.

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/u ... andestine/

Hi Markk. Congratulations on putting down that awful burden of guilt. It's a great feeling.

Congratulations on reaching a milestone of a kind of healthy closure, Markk! I am very happy for you.

Thanks,

I wonder if the church will ever apologize to the historians like the Quinn's, Arrington's, and Palmer's..., let alone folks like the Tanners, for bringing out the truth they once denied, yet now admit. Bushman nailed it when he said the church is in between a rock and a hard place in having to either disappoint the grandmas with the truth, vs disappointing the grandkids by hiding the truth. The next milestone for the church in this might be something such as actually teaching the rock in the hat at GC.

They have come a long way, but still have a long long way to go, but I have to give credit to Nelson for being truthful, even if only in an "endnote."

Markk wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 09, 2023 4:41 pm

Thanks,

I wonder if the church will ever apologize to the historians like the Quinn's, Arrington's, and Palmer's..., let alone folks like the Tanners, for bringing out the truth they once denied, yet now admit. Bushman nailed it when he said the church is in between a rock and a hard place in having to either disappoint the grandmas with the truth, vs disappointing the grandkids by hiding the truth. The next milestone for the church in this might be something such as actually teaching the rock in the hat at GC.

They have come a long way, but still have a long long way to go, but I have to give credit to Nelson for being truthful, even if only in an "endnote."

They will do whatever they think will keep butts in the pews and tithing pouring in.

Yeah I got in that episode a bit late, but Sandra was indeed correct, "We won!" meaning the Tanner's and their various approachs to Mormonism and truth telling, no matter how unpopular or unspiritual they were to the church leaders. Those dolts wouldn't know the Holy Ghost if it jumped directly into their bodies and twisted their own heads around a full 360 like in The Exorcist.

Sandra was exactly correct that they won the war since the Church essays now admit everything the Tanners said and got excommunicated and vilified for by those leaders. The leaders were the misleaders and distractors and hiders of history. That just HAS to sting the apologists. Those essays have done more against apologetics in Mormonism than anything the anti-Mormons - so-called, have ever done.

I remember years ago reading on the MAD forum when the apologists responded, to a supposed new tidbit of information, that they had known it for years. The catch was that they would have only learned that truth from following the Tanners.

A defense of fraudulent information relies on restating the information along with a bit extra sophistry. Floating the timbers used for the building of the Nephite ship down the Suez Canal, along with all necessary nails and Japanese capacitors for the radar of curious construction. It's the extra details that count.

Those essays have done more against apologetics in Mormonism than anything the anti-Mormons - so-called, have ever done.

I have been Dan Vogel-ing out for the last month, revisiting "money digging" in regard to the inception of the Book of Mormon and the witnesses...and cross searching through LDS.org. I was pleasantly surprised that the church is actually building and using the essay context, in articles beyond the actual essays. Granted they are watered down, mostly ambiguous on hard to swallow points, but non-the less they are moving the goal posts on many of the old narratives. And, with help with the footnotes that lead to the Joseph Smith Papers...it fairly easy to get to a truth, or close to it.

Here is an example, of many. If you read this, and then read and follow the footnotes there is a lot of information in here. Don't get me wrong they have a long way to go, in actually teaching this openly...but I never imagined them going anywhere near this close to the historical truth 20 years ago...and for me it begs the question is this Nelson and Oaks...or???? Packer, JFS, and Nibley are rolling in their graves.

Forgot to paste a link for my example.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

I think you have it right Markk. But it's not to the church's credit since they have been shamed into more open honesty and are grudgingly opening up to the actual truth. They get no credit. It ALL goes to the critics for standing up to the bullies anyway. And, as I say and will say again that just HAS to sting to the apologists. Yet they continue defending the dolts since their imagining the promises of glories in the afterlife is real, all the while seeing all the lies here. The disconnect is so immense with them.

And... AND!!!!! it rang in me during the show and I said so in the comments, just DAYYUM, Sandra is right again as was Gary Bergera that no one has actually refuted Mormonism, Mormonism, Shadow or Reality to any real degree at all and it's been here for over half a century. Let that sink in.