Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

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drumdude
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Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by drumdude »

Just stumbled across this little faith promoting story:
David O. McKay, a former Mormon prophet, once wanted to speak to church members in New Zealand without the diluting impact of an interpreter. He spoke in English for forty minutes, and many were able to understand him, even though they didn’t speak English. They were given this ability just for this occasion in order to receive God’s word. It is unlikely any of them were able to comprehend English when the meeting ended. (See “Chapter 22: The Gifts of the Spirit,” Gospel Principles, (2009),125–32.)

Although in many churches, the gift of tongues is considered a very desirable gift, Joseph Smith said it was generally the least important gift, and not useful except for the types of circumstances mentioned above. Generally, when Mormons do have the types of experiences we’ve discussed here, they don’t really think of it as the gift of tongues, although, of course, it is. They think of it as the Holy Ghost helping them share or understand the gospel
https://ldsblogs.com/4683/what-is-the-gift-of-tongues

Divine Assistance in New Zealand

After arriving in New Zealand on April 21, McKay and Cannon conferred with government officials concerning the Church’s work in that country. The Colonial Minister of Native Affairs “praised the excellency of the results of Mormonism among the people” and added, “I wish all the New Zealand Maoris were Mormons; if they were, they would all be good citizens.” [22] The following day the party traveled to the Waikato district for the annual mission conference, the Hui Tau. Along with the usual religious meetings, this multiday event included unique cultural performances, athletic competitions, and plenty to eat. “Boiled meat, potatoes, spinach, bread, butter, jam, and cheese, made the principal eatables,” Elder McKay reported, “but cake, watermelons, and other fruit and delicacies were also served. . . . As the women peeled the potatoes, it seemed by the ton, or washed the dishes, literally by the hundred, they worked in unison to the rhythm of some song, hummed as gleefully as though they were having a Jubilee. Sometimes the young girls having ‘finished the dishes’ would wind up with a touch of ‘Kopi Kopi’ or ‘Hulu Hulu.’” [23]

The heart of the Hui Tau was gospel preaching. Hundreds gathered in a large tent, eager to hear the first Apostle who had ever come to their land. Elder McKay spoke several times during the conference. He later described one of those occasions:

When I looked over that vast assemblage and contemplated the great expectations that filled the hearts of all who had met together, I realized how inadequately I might satisfy the ardent desires of their souls, and I yearned, most earnestly, for the gift of tongues that I might be able to speak to them in their native language.

Until that moment I had not given much serious thought to the gift of tongues, but on that occasion, I wished with all my heart that I might be worthy of that divine power.

In other missions I had spoken through an interpreter but, able as all interpreters are, I nevertheless felt hampered—in fact, somewhat inhibited— in presenting my message.

Now I faced an audience that had assembled with unusual expectations, and I then realized, as never before, the great responsibility of my office. From the depth of my soul, I prayed for divine assistance.

When I arose to give my address, I said to Brother Stuart Meha, our interpreter, that I would speak without his translating, sentence by sentence, what I said. Then to the audience I continued:

I wish, oh, how I wish I had the power to speak to you in your own tongue, that I might tell you what is in my heart; but since I have not the gift, I pray, and I ask you to pray, that you might have the spirit of interpretation, of discernment, that you may understand at least the spirit while I am speaking, and then you will get the words and the thought when Brother Meha interprets.”

My sermon lasted forty minutes, and I have never addressed a more attentive, a more respectful audience. My listeners were in perfect rapport—this I knew when I saw tears in their eyes. Some of them at least, perhaps most of them, who did not understand English, had the gift of interpretation.

Brother Sidney Christy, a native New Zealander who had been a student at Brigham Young University, at the close of my address whispered to me, “Brother McKay, they got your message!”

“Yes,” I replied, “I think so, but for the benefit of some who may not have understood, we shall have Brother Meha give a synopsis of it in Maori.”

During the translation, some of the Maori corrected him on some points, showing that they had a clear conception of what had been said in English. [24]

Meha himself later described the event in these words: “The spirit of God was in that great audience, for the hearts of men and women melted—men and women whom I knew did not understand English, shed tears with those who did understand. They understood the message Elder McKay gave in that meeting. I remember after the meeting Bro. [Sid] Christy came up and said, ‘Bro. Mckay the people understood you even before Bro. Meha interpreted.’
https://rsc.byu.edu/pioneers-pacific/ap ... nd-pacific


Isn't it interesting that for this particular miracle, God didn't give McKay the "gift of tongues" the way it had always been given in the past? The "gift of tongues" would have been, like McKay said, the ability for him to speak in their language without knowing their language himself.

It's also interesting that Rusty Nelson's miracles have shrunk even further in impressiveness. He preemptively cancelled some appointments before COVID. And he survived some light turbulence which wasn't even noteworthy in the pilot's notes.

Why does Mormon God keep withholding miracles from his modern anointed prophets, seers, and revelators? Joseph Smith was able to heal the sick, for heaven's sake.
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Nimrod
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by Nimrod »

A Miracle? Of course, had McKay spoken in a foreign language that he was not familiar with, that could have been attested to by more than one listener, maybe even have been recorded in some way. As told, how is it known that McKay's talk in English was understood by any of those in attendance unfamiliar with the English language?

A Miracle? How many of those in attendance found their misplaced keys?
Apologists try to shill an explanation to questioning members as though science and reason really explain and buttress their professed faith. It [sic] does not. By definition, faith is the antithesis of science and reason. Apologetics is a further deception by faith peddlers to keep power and influence.
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by Wonhyo »

Miracles are hard to come by in the present era, and Mormons are now accustomed to an evolution of sorts in the kinds of miracles available. For example, instead of the miracle of healing through faith and priesthood blessings, apostles now tell stories of having the faith not to be healed through priesthood blessings.
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by JohnW »

Wonhyo wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:10 pm
Miracles are hard to come by in the present era, and Mormons are now accustomed to an evolution of sorts in the kinds of miracles available. For example, instead of the miracle of healing through faith and priesthood blessings, apostles now tell stories of having the faith not to be healed through priesthood blessings.
The talk you are referencing by E. Bednar is one of my favorites. Having the faith to not be healed is an extremely important thing. Of course, I can see how it wouldn't really do much to convince non-believers, which I'm certain wasn't his intent.

I posted some comments in msnobody's thread about spiritual gifts that are germane to this thread as well. I personally think this is a much more complex topic than just dismissing that miracles don't happen in the church. Of course, I don't think I could really put together an argument that would be satisfying to this group. I guess I am just meekly stating that I disagree without the ability to do much about it. Probably a little pitiful, but hey, we all have our place in the world (insert smily face).
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

JohnW wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:09 am
Wonhyo wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:10 pm
Miracles are hard to come by in the present era, and Mormons are now accustomed to an evolution of sorts in the kinds of miracles available. For example, instead of the miracle of healing through faith and priesthood blessings, apostles now tell stories of having the faith not to be healed through priesthood blessings.
The talk you are referencing by E. Bednar is one of my favorites. Having the faith to not be healed is an extremely important thing. Of course, I can see how it wouldn't really do much to convince non-believers, which I'm certain wasn't his intent.
Who would have thought that the priesthood was to be used for not healing. It would have been an interesting New Testament Jesus if all he did was walk around not healing lepers or the blind or sick and not raising the dead. Jesus could have just walked around town to town asking people if they had faith not to be healed and then not doing anything.
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by Doctor Steuss »

If you lack the faith to not be healed, does that mean you'll be healed? Is being healed then a punishment for your lack of faith?

**I smite you with health, and no longer suffering!**
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by dastardly stem »

I don't know that I"m correct, John. But it sounds like you are saying since there is a God and the LDS Church is true, He is in charge and whatever happens is what He desires to happen. So if one has faith and they don't get healed then they have to accept that's what God wanted. If one has faith and is not healed and it causes them to question God or question their religion, then they do not have strong faith because they must accept that no matter what happens, it's God's will...

Or something?

To me God is a terrible dude expecting his followers to accept goofy things and is ready to punish any who doesn't accept goofy things.
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

drumdude wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:01 pm

Isn't it interesting that for this particular miracle, God didn't give McKay the "gift of tongues" the way it had always been given in the past? The "gift of tongues" would have been, like McKay said, the ability for him to speak in their language without knowing their language himself.

It's also interesting that Rusty Nelson's miracles have shrunk even further in impressiveness. He preemptively cancelled some appointments before COVID. And he survived some light turbulence which wasn't even noteworthy in the pilot's notes.

Why does Mormon God keep withholding miracles from his modern anointed prophets, seers, and revelators? Joseph Smith was able to heal the sick, for heaven's sake.
What a fun story that was. And I'm sure that if the words were changed to be about a Jehovah's Witness leader that your average Mormon could see that there really was no way of telling whether the Maori people had understood McKay. Perhaps some of them might have, given that it was a large group and the odds are good that at least a few individuals knew English.

As related, this story isn't miraculous at all. Perhaps they just appreciated his manner and being able to hear him at length even if they couldn't understand the words
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:33 pm
If you lack the faith to not be healed, does that mean you'll be healed? Is being healed then a punishment for your lack of faith?

**I smite you with health, and no longer suffering!**
Hey that sort of reverse psychology just might work on the god who was happy to receive the human sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter because she happened to be the first person or animal he saw after winning a battle. (Judges 11)

More seriously though, the idea that not being healed is a faith-promoting experience is a severe delusion. It means that there's no accountability for belief. They tell you all the time that if you have faith you can literally move a mountain. And yet that never, ever happens--nor do any much smaller things like regrowing limbs or curing genetic disorders.

Everyone knows that none of these things ever happen and this is religion's get out of jail free card. I suppose it's better than telling people that it was their fault for not being healed. But it's still incredibly manipulative.
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by Nimrod »

JohnW wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:09 am
The talk you are referencing by E. Bednar is one of my favorites. Having the faith to not be healed is an extremely important thing.
What takes faith to not be healed? All you need is to be stupid enough not to get medical assistance for any of a variety of serious heallth conditions, and you might just die. You really think you need faith for your god not to intervene on your behalf and heal you? Because, without faith, your god would intervene and heal you?

Bednar's is nothing more than a charlatan trick.
Last edited by Nimrod on Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Apologists try to shill an explanation to questioning members as though science and reason really explain and buttress their professed faith. It [sic] does not. By definition, faith is the antithesis of science and reason. Apologetics is a further deception by faith peddlers to keep power and influence.
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