Secular folks should worry.

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Res Ipsa
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Res Ipsa »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:03 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:53 am
MG 2.0 has already told those of us who are not people of faith that we are the agents of the adversary. He has staked me and others out as his enemies in the existential battle he imagines is going on. That's not building civil society.
I do think that atheism and secular humanism are an enemy of religious faith and ultimately civil society as we have known it.
The term you are looking for is “anti-theism,” not “atheist” or “secular humanism.” In fact, if you’re actually interested in “civil society,” you should be thinking of secular humanists as allies, not enemies. In terms of promoting civil society, their core values substantially overlap with those of theists.
MG 2.0 wrote:I’m doubtful that I have literally called you an agent of the adversary. I do see Hitchens and other prominent atheists as enemies of religious belief.
Whether you specifically singled me out by name or referred to a category in which you’ve placed me, I think my statement is accurate. Aren’t there two and only two sides in your holy war? Didn’t you just label me as an enemy of religion?
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:53 am
The self-proclaimed Christian politicians like the MTGs and the Bohberts are not promoting civil society; they are promoting hatred and division.
I agree. I’m a Romney guy.
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:53 am
There are also lots of religious believers, including friends of mine, who reject division and are trying to build communities based on values that are not unique to religion. And there are non-believers who promote division.
Again, I agree.
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:53 am
But when MG 2.0 starts out by trying to turn me into a scary bogeyman that will destroy society…
MG 2.0 wrote: If you can point out contextually where I have literally done this I’d appreciate it. Actually, you for the most part come across as a pretty reasonable guy.
Literally in this post.
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:53 am
…he isn't building a community worthy of any degree of praise.
MG 2.0 wrote:I’m in favor of calling out atheism as being essentially anti religious. If you’re taking that personally, that’s on you.
I’m an atheist. How could I not take it personally? You seem to forget that all these categories you are talking about are composed of human beings, just like you.
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:53 am
His community is based more on fear and hate of others than the types of values he claims to hold.
MG 2.0 wrote:I’m not a Trump guy. Or far right. I’d consider myself to be a moderate.
I’m not talking about Trump. I’m talking about you.
MG 2.0 wrote:The dangers of secular humanist extremism and GenZ’s attachment to liberal values (not classical liberalism, but leftist views) that are being promoted by secular humanists at universities, and the failure of these same universities to allow diversity of thought, are slowly decreasing the attachment of younger people to the religious impulses of their fathers. A humble belief in God as their maker and our accountability to Him for our actions and behaviors.
This illustrates my point. You are appealing to hate and fear of liberals, leftists, secular humanists, etc. It bears no resemblance to the values you propose to promote or to words of Jesus as found in the New Testament.
MG 2.0 wrote:If I have personally offended you either directly or indirectly, I apologize. If the fact that I strongly believe you are mistaken in your position as an atheist offends you…I’m not sure there is much I can do about that.
This is a classic passive-aggressive apology that neither requires nor deserves acceptance or rejection. I’m not offended by you in the slightest. I’m just pointing out in very concrete ways the stark contradiction between your purported concerns and your own words.
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dastardly stem
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by dastardly stem »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:41 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:03 am


I do think that atheism and secular humanism are an enemy of religious faith and ultimately civil society as we have known it.
The term you are looking for is “anti-theism,” not “atheist” or “secular humanism.” In fact, if you’re actually interested in “civil society,” you should be thinking of secular humanists as allies, not enemies. In terms of promoting civil society, their core values substantially overlap with those of theists.
Religion’s ability to manufacture and create enemies seems to me to be one of its greatest vices. It makes me wonder if I’m rightly considered anti religion. I don’t think I would be critical of religion if the desire inherent in religion to create and maintain enemies wasn’t so strong. Adopting a devil was perhaps Christianity’s biggest mistake. It gave believers justification for the hate Jesus taught them to disseminate. Love your enemies but hate your close family, is the greatest example of mixed messaging a god could endorse.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Res Ipsa »

dastardly stem wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:01 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:41 pm


The term you are looking for is “anti-theism,” not “atheist” or “secular humanism.” In fact, if you’re actually interested in “civil society,” you should be thinking of secular humanists as allies, not enemies. In terms of promoting civil society, their core values substantially overlap with those of theists.
Religion’s ability to manufacture and create enemies seems to me to be one of its greatest vices. It makes me wonder if I’m rightly considered anti religion. I don’t think I would be critical of religion if the desire inherent in religion to create and maintain enemies wasn’t so strong. Adopting a devil was perhaps Christianity’s biggest mistake. It gave believers justification for the hate Jesus taught them to disseminate. Love your enemies but hate your close family, is the greatest example of mixed messaging a god could endorse.
I don't read the passages you refer to as Jesus teaching his followers to spread hate. I read them as applying to Jesus and the effect he knew his teachings would have. He instructed his followers to put aside all worldly things, including familial relationships, and follow him. I think that's a far cry from instructing his followers to hate their family members.

I have no idea which category you belong in. I'm much more interested in what you have to say than in labeling you. ;)
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by dastardly stem »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:41 pm
I don't read the passages you refer to as Jesus teaching his followers to spread hate. I read them as applying to Jesus and the effect he knew his teachings would have. He instructed his followers to put aside all worldly things, including familial relationships, and follow him. I think that's a far cry from instructing his followers to hate their family members.

I have no idea which category you belong in. I'm much more interested in what you have to say than in labeling you. ;)
One certainly can read anything anyway they want. My point is there are mixed messages in the Bible. Anyone who comes to Jesus must hate father and mother is pretty straightforward. If jesus knew his listeners would hate their families and is opposed to them doing that, then why did he command it or reference the hate as a requirement to actually being his disciples ?

No matter really, read it however one wants. it would be good for Christian’s to ignore or try and squeeze other meanings out of the passages. But again that’s all besides the point, I think, as my point is simply there are mixed messages in the Bible. This is a clear example I thought. But there are plenty of others.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

dastardly stem wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:01 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:41 pm


The term you are looking for is “anti-theism,” not “atheist” or “secular humanism.” In fact, if you’re actually interested in “civil society,” you should be thinking of secular humanists as allies, not enemies. In terms of promoting civil society, their core values substantially overlap with those of theists.
Religion’s ability to manufacture and create enemies seems to me to be one of its greatest vices. It makes me wonder if I’m rightly considered anti religion. I don’t think I would be critical of religion if the desire inherent in religion to create and maintain enemies wasn’t so strong. Adopting a devil was perhaps Christianity’s biggest mistake. It gave believers justification for the hate Jesus taught them to disseminate. Love your enemies but hate your close family, is the greatest example of mixed messaging a god could endorse.
My wife and I were on our way back from visiting a park and we passed by a rural Mormon church, and I had a very similar thought to the one you posted. I mentioned to my wife that the church made me realize apocalyptic cults need an Other to frame as an enemy to stay relevant to their adherents. The Mormon Q15 need a Satan, and they need their flock to feel aggrieved and oppressed, even when they aren’t because people tend to cough up more money when they feel like they’re in an ideological and personal struggle. If you’re balanced out and calm, I’d imagine you being less susceptible to manipulation than if you were emotionally depleted or feeling in need of fixing.

Anyway, I also agree with your interpretation of Jesus’ message.

eta via gemli sharing a hitchslap on SeN:
[Religion] attacks us in our deepest integrity - the core of our self-respect. Religion says that we would not know right from wrong, we would not know an evil, wicked act from a decent human act without divine permission, without divine authority or without, even worse, either the fear of a divine punishment or the hope of a divine reward. It strips us of the right to make our own determination, as all humans always have, about what is and what is not a right human action.
- Doc
Last edited by Doctor CamNC4Me on Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Res Ipsa »

dastardly stem wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:43 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:41 pm
I don't read the passages you refer to as Jesus teaching his followers to spread hate. I read them as applying to Jesus and the effect he knew his teachings would have. He instructed his followers to put aside all worldly things, including familial relationships, and follow him. I think that's a far cry from instructing his followers to hate their family members.

I have no idea which category you belong in. I'm much more interested in what you have to say than in labeling you. ;)
One certainly can read anything anyway they want. My point is there are mixed messages in the Bible. Anyone who comes to Jesus must hate father and mother is pretty straightforward. If jesus knew his listeners would hate their families and is opposed to them doing that, then why did he command it or reference the hate as a requirement to actually being his disciples ?

No matter really, read it however one wants. it would be good for Christian’s to ignore or try and squeeze other meanings out of the passages. But again that’s all besides the point, I think, as my point is simply there are mixed messages in the Bible. This is a clear example I thought. But there are plenty of others.
Where does Jesus command his disciples to hate? He tells them it is more important to love him than to love their families. He tells them to put following him above family relationships. But language are you referencing when you say he taught his disciples to hate their families?
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Morley »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:06 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:43 pm


One certainly can read anything anyway they want. My point is there are mixed messages in the Bible. Anyone who comes to Jesus must hate father and mother is pretty straightforward. If jesus knew his listeners would hate their families and is opposed to them doing that, then why did he command it or reference the hate as a requirement to actually being his disciples ?

No matter really, read it however one wants. it would be good for Christian’s to ignore or try and squeeze other meanings out of the passages. But again that’s all besides the point, I think, as my point is simply there are mixed messages in the Bible. This is a clear example I thought. But there are plenty of others.
Where does Jesus command his disciples to hate? He tells them it is more important to love him than to love their families. He tells them to put following him above family relationships. But language are you referencing when you say he taught his disciples to hate their families?
I think Stem is taking this at face value:

Luke 14:26 KJV

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by dastardly stem »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:06 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:43 pm


One certainly can read anything anyway they want. My point is there are mixed messages in the Bible. Anyone who comes to Jesus must hate father and mother is pretty straightforward. If jesus knew his listeners would hate their families and is opposed to them doing that, then why did he command it or reference the hate as a requirement to actually being his disciples ?

No matter really, read it however one wants. it would be good for Christian’s to ignore or try and squeeze other meanings out of the passages. But again that’s all besides the point, I think, as my point is simply there are mixed messages in the Bible. This is a clear example I thought. But there are plenty of others.
Where does Jesus command his disciples to hate? He tells them it is more important to love him than to love their families. He tells them to put following him above family relationships. But language are you referencing when you say he taught his disciples to hate their families?
Morley is correctly citing the passage I had in mind when I offered an example of mixed messaging (sorry I figured we were on the same page when you too referenced Jesus’ teachings in the New Testament). But I may be confused on the point you’re raising. We can pick another example, like Jesus never knew many believers or He came not to bring peace but a sword…referencing examples in the gospels is natural since it appears each gospel was written with the previous gospels in mind, at least after mark’s gospel. It’s as if these subsequent authors intended to change it for their own reasons. But that suggests no consistent or wise God endorses those works, unless of course he endorses mixed messaging—love your enemy according to Matt’s gospel and hate your close relatives according to Luke’s. Expand beyond the gospels and the Bible is full of mixed messaging as I see it.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by dastardly stem »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:57 pm

My wife and I were on our way back from visiting a park and we passed by a rural Mormon church, and I had a very similar thought to the one you posted. I mentioned to my wife that the church made me realize apocalyptic cults need an Other to frame as an enemy to stay relevant to their adherents. The Mormon Q15 need a Satan, and they need their flock to feel aggrieved and oppressed, even when they aren’t because people tend to cough up more money when they feel like they’re in an ideological and personal struggle. If you’re balanced out and calm, I’d imagine you being less susceptible to manipulation than if you were emotionally depleted or feeling in need of fixing.

Anyway, I also agree with your interpretation of Jesus’ message.

eta via gemli sharing a hitchslap on SeN:
[Religion] attacks us in our deepest integrity - the core of our self-respect. Religion says that we would not know right from wrong, we would not know an evil, wicked act from a decent human act without divine permission, without divine authority or without, even worse, either the fear of a divine punishment or the hope of a divine reward. It strips us of the right to make our own determination, as all humans always have, about what is and what is not a right human action.
- Doc
Awesome quote. I recall feeling like I was seen as a wolf in sheep’s clothing sitting in church. Eventually basically everyone confirmed that. It was a bit eye opening, but that same thought you mention hit home—they needed an enemy. It was interesting realizing the scriptures were really true to people. To them there had to be wolves sneaking in and killing sheep unawares. Sure satan, but people have to be influenced by him.

MG’s insistence on taking on the mindset of a holy war, or enemies or battling others is directly from Jesus’ teachings.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by malkie »

Perhaps it's people (both religious and secular) in the US who should worry - and think about how much more civil a society we have here in Canada, closest neighbour to the US. I've tried not to cherry-pick too much - but, hey - I'm Canadian!

Here are some comparisons of Canadian societal measures compared to the US:
  • lower major crime rates - especially gun violence
  • lower rate of incarceration
  • higher life expectancies
  • mostly better healthcare outcomes for lower total spending
  • very much lower maternal death rate
  • lower poverty rate
  • lower rate of death due to COVID-19
And look at how religious we are not:
  • smaller % think that religion is “very important” to them
  • smaller % go to church regularly
  • larger % are atheist or agnostic
Of course there are other measures in which the US comes out "better" than Canada, but overall I think we do pretty well.

ETA: % of taxpayers donating to charity is approximately twice as high in Canada vs US - not bad for the secular vs religious folks!
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