Oh God, i hope not. Watching you, a member of a small and rapidly shrinking group of aging, believing Mormons, make a fool out of yourself for 65 pages really helps validate many of the thoughts I have had about members of your demographic who continue to cling to the folklore in an effort to rationalize the endless hours they devoted to a psuedo-religious cult...The fact that you and ajax, a couple of bigoted, judgy right-wing nutters and Mormon priesthood holders who are incapable of introspection or critical thought are the main representation of believing Mormons here is just fantastic. Please don't stop being the dishonest hypocrite you have been taught to be. Watching you accuse everyone of the things you have been doing for 65 pages is just gold.
The fact that you don't think society can function properly without devotion to some make believe sky being which includes adherence to a bunch of silly rules "revealed" by a group of dishonest, geriatric homophobic salary-men is completely expected from someone, like you, who has never really experienced anything outside the small conservative Mormon bubble you have created for your long, uneventful life devoted to Mormon mythology. The average age of attending Mormons will continue to rise as the org continues to offer nothing of value to younger generations beyond guilt and homophobia. What other religions have you experienced? what cultures have you lived among and explored? what countries have you spent time in where "judaeo christian values" are not the driving force in society? Obviously none, but maybe one day you will grow up and actually learn a thing or two about how the world works...maybe start with actually reading what people post here...
Last edited by Schreech on Wed Apr 12, 2023 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
The second commandment is to love they neighbor as thy self, not a dictate to bear arms. The political tenor of the religious right is absolutely fitting here because in the many years you've posted, you've show far more concern for gender issues, ssa issues, and the contra-woke agenda. You're a standard right-wing culture warrior. Suddenly, you're interested in helping the needy when you stumble across an article that suggests churches do a better job of service than secular outlets. I've never seen you all that interested in topics about service. On the other hand, I've seen extensive posting from Doc Cam and Dr. Steuss over the years on service related issues. Suddenly, you've come to this realization that we need core Christian values, but everything about the broad Christian movement you identify with in this country is contrary to the "core" Christian message of peace and goodwill, and helping people, and all of that. The current epoch of Christianity you belong to and identify with broadly totally fails at core Christianity.
The second commandment is to love they neighbor as thy self, not a dictate to bear arms. The political tenor of the religious right is absolutely fitting here because in the many years you've posted, you've show far more concern for gender issues, ssa issues, and the contra-woke agenda. You're a standard right-wing culture warrior. Suddenly, you're interested in helping the needy when you stumble across an article that suggests churches do a better job of service than secular outlets. I've never seen you all that interested in topics about service. On the other hand, I've seen extensive posting from Doc Cam and Dr. Steuss over the years on service related issues. Suddenly, you've come to this realization that we need core Christian values, but everything about the broad Christian movement you identify with in this country is contrary to the "core" Christian message of peace and goodwill, and helping people, and all of that. The current epoch of Christianity you belong to and identify with broadly totally fails at core Christianity.
I could easily say that about some folks that have participated on this very thread. And it would be true.
But I won’t.
I’m happy to let others determine whether or not I’ve been forthright and upfront in dealing honestly and objectively during the length and breadth of this thread...
ok, let's do that. first, however, Doc already said it well elsewhere...
MG luxuriates in a flawed epistemology, which for him is nothing more than an endless special pleading argument - that his beliefs are special in the sense that they can't be challenged by conventional logic and reasoning. Obviously feelings are not a reliable pathway to truth, but he uses them to codify his cognitive bias as truth. It’s probably the worst epistemology you can have...
And yet, the shill just spams away. Week after week, despite the master classes that have been afforded him here. He doesn’t read. He doesn’t care. He just blithely scrolls past posts, and repeats himself...
i agree for the most part, but i think there is also a masochistic component. he comes here, says horrible things about people, things that he has to know are insanely illogical and grossly inhumane, and then waits for people to object, sometimes poking and prodding with multiple posts in a row, even responding to himself, until he gets a response. When he does, no matter how reasonable the response may have been or how full of actual content, he focuses on the "attacks" (real or imagined) on himself. At that point, he can sorrowfully declare himself as a martyr for his [whatever], and luxuriate in his role as a long suffering saint, in his mind clearly maligned by those he considers his inferiors.
in my opinion, secretly he enjoys disrupting discussions with this kind of trolling, but only if he can pretend he is engaging in saintly martyrdom, so it hopefully stifles some of that irritating self-awareness that occasionally has to bubble to the surface, whispering 'what a mean-spirited jerk I really, really am.'
And, also in my opinion, he takes advantage of the most cult-like aspects of the Mormon church in order to engage in and justify this twisted hobby.
Great analysis.
- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
The thread's title is ironic. Nothing MG 2.0 posted provides a rational argument for why secular folks should worry. The title should be "Religious Man is Worried." And he should be. I've long been of the opinion that combining church and state makes for a bad state and a bad religion. The Republican Party sold its soul to the evangelical right as means to win elections. And now the members of Generation Z, along with significant numbers of earlier generations, are recognizing the authoritarian fruits of an unholy marriage between religion and government power.
The result is that Americans, especially younger Americans, are leaving religion in droves. And it's organized religion's own damned fault. The right's so-called culture war is substantively a religious war -- an attempt to force all Americans to live according to the prescriptions and prohibitions on behavior. And most Americans don't want that. They don't want religious ideology overriding health care decisions made by them in consultation with their doctors. They don't want their kids to read about Rosa Parks from a textbook that omits the fact that she was restricted to the back of the bus based on her race. They don't want their kids' access to books in their school library subject to a board of religious censors. They want their kids to be educated in a warm, welcoming environment -- not with that environment limited to white, straight, conservative kids.
in my opinion, the first amendment's free exercise clause is one of the most important freedoms enumerated in the bill of rights. I think it gets to something fundamental about being human beings: the ability to think about and understand's one's place in the universe. And beyond that, to gather with people who hold similar beliefs and to talk about those beliefs. I think government has no place in that realm.
But (and there's always a but), when religious believers seize the levers of the government as a means of imposing their religious belief on all citizens, it's extremely difficult to prevent a movement towards authoritarianism and tyranny. My response is to fight back through the system. Were I a still a believer, I'd fight back within my religious sect against any political attempt to impose my religious values on others. After all, they have the same rights I do. But I'm not surprised to see lots of folks, especially younger folks, rejecting religion altogether based on the authoritarianism that the party of the religious right has adopted.
And, in my world, that's too bad. Because I think religion can be an important counterweight against government tyranny. One of the best examples is the role that religion played in the Civil Rights movement, especially in black churches. I'm not sure how successful that movement would have been without the strong religious faith that held black folks together in the face of the violent opposition it encountered.
But religion can't be a counterweight against government tyranny when it is the government. When dogmatic ideologies -- sacred or secular -- capture a government, the results are ever pretty. MG 2.0 has his favorite "atheists" that he raises as a boogeyman when it comes to nonbelievers leading a country. Yet, he ignores the totalitarian religious governments of today. And, although he pooh poohed the idea of successful non-believer leaders of governments, he simply changed the subject when I provided a list of modern atheist leaders of countries. Guess what? Exactly zero of them turned into Stalin, HItler or Mao. That's because what creates authoritarian government has nothing to do with the difference between belief and non belief. Authoritarian government raises out of out absolutist commitment to an ideology combined with portraying everyone who doesn't adhere to that ideology as an existential threat. To steal from the Bill Clinton era, it's the ideology, stupid.
MG 2.0 is an ideologue. If you don't accept his ideology, then you are an existential threat. His idea of unity is "accept my ideology." And when he advocates government enforcing his ideology, that's tyranny. That's the opposite of creating and nurturing a civil society.
As this discussion has been ongoing, I've been reading Olivia Butler's the parable of the sower. It's about a young black woman why attempts to rebuild civil society after the collapse of civil society in America. And she does it by creating a religion around a conception of God that she created. There is more wisdom about how to build a community and a civil society in that book than in any post of MG 2.0's.
he/him When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.
Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
Oh God, i hope not. Watching you, a member of a small and rapidly shrinking group of aging, believing Mormons, make a fool out of yourself for 65 pages really helps validate many of the thoughts I have had about members of your demographic who continue to cling to the folklore in an effort to rationalize the endless hours they devoted to a psuedo-religious cult...The fact that you and ajax, a couple of bigoted, judgy right-wing nutters and Mormon priesthood holders who are incapable of introspection or critical thought are the main representation of believing Mormons here is just fantastic. Please don't stop being the dishonest hypocrite you have been taught to be. Watching you accuse everyone of the things you have been doing for 65 pages is just gold.
The fact that you don't think society can function properly without devotion to some make believe sky being which includes adherence to a bunch of silly rules "revealed" by a group of dishonest, geriatric homophobic salary-men is completely expected from someone, like you, who has never really experienced anything outside the small conservative Mormon bubble you have created for your long, uneventful life devoted to Mormon mythology. The average age of attending Mormons will continue to rise as the org continues to offer nothing of value to younger generations beyond guilt and homophobia. What other religions have you experienced? what cultures have you lived among and explored? what countries have you spent time in where "judaeo christian values" are not the driving force in society? Obviously none, but maybe one day you will grow up and actually learn a thing or two about how the world works...maybe start with actually reading what people post here...
Hello my old friend Screech. You certainly make some fair points.Certainly humans have formed moral systems for a long time, some based on some sort of god belief and some not. There was a time where I probably thought without a God we would simply be amoral unethical beasts. That day has long passed for me and in fact I find a secular approach to morals and ethics likely will result in better morals and ethics than religion does. I am working through two books on this. First is The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris. He also has a series of podcasts that explores such topics that I like. The other is Enlightenment Now by Stephen Pynker.
MG's approach of without God we all fall prey to moral relativism is just nonsense and a bogy man term the religious people use as a scar tactic.
The second commandment is to love they neighbor as thy self, not a dictate to bear arms. The political tenor of the religious right is absolutely fitting here because in the many years you've posted, you've show far more concern for gender issues, ssa issues, and the contra-woke agenda. You're a standard right-wing culture warrior. Suddenly, you're interested in helping the needy when you stumble across an article that suggests churches do a better job of service than secular outlets. I've never seen you all that interested in topics about service. On the other hand, I've seen extensive posting from Doc Cam and Dr. Steuss over the years on service related issues. Suddenly, you've come to this realization that we need core Christian values, but everything about the broad Christian movement you identify with in this country is contrary to the "core" Christian message of peace and goodwill, and helping people, and all of that. The current epoch of Christianity you belong to and identify with broadly totally fails at core Christianity.
For what it is worth when I was an active Mormon almost all be service time was taken by the LDS Church. And most of my donation$$. Now I have time to volunteer with Habitat for Humanity. I serve on the board of two local non pofits. I am part of a planning committee for a local cancer center that is doing it's first cycling fund raiser this year. And I donate to quite a number of good organizations that do much more than the LDS Church to relieve human suffering.
For what it is worth when I was an active Mormon almost all be service time was taken by the LDS Church. And most of my donation$$. Now I have time to volunteer with Habitat for Humanity. I serve on the board of two local non pofits. I am part of a planning committee for a local cancer center that is doing it's first cycling fund raiser this year. And I donate to quite a number of good organizations that do much more than the LDS Church to relieve human suffering.
Wow, what a lightning bolt this post of yours was. I was thinking back through my life, and my periods of activity/inactivity, and it's incredible the difference in volunteering opportunities I enjoyed while inactive. While active, I'd always have a calling that would eat up a lot of spare time during the week (either actively fulfilling the calling, or prepping). Saturday mornings would be devoted to cleaning the chapel. Outside of the "official" calling would be a round-robin of other things, like being security at the building during Relief Society activities, or helping set up or break down tables/chairs from events/meetings/scouts/etc. Any time left over for volunteering was still often done via things filtered through the Church and to benefit primarily members of the Church.
While I was inactive, the variety and amount of volunteering I was able to do was drastically different. Just a small list (to contrast with cleaning the chapel, policing a foyer, and breaking down chairs): I was on the board of directors for two suicide prevention organizations, volunteered with multiple foster organizations (putting "bunny baskets" together at easter, being Santa for a Christmas event, etc.), assisting refugees by both soliciting donations and distributing them, feeding the homeless, working with an addiction recovery program getting people into housing, etc. Not only time to volunteer, but money to directly contribute to things (10% is a lot -- especially when you're lower-middle class). Thinking back, of course, also makes my heart warm with how much people on this board helped me on those journeys too (this really is a community in the fullest sense of the word).
Now I have time to volunteer with Habitat for Humanity. I serve on the board of two local non pofits. I am part of a planning committee for a local cancer center that is doing it's first cycling fund raiser this year. And I donate to quite a number of good organizations that do much more than the LDS Church to relieve human suffering.
Kudos. Well done.
- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
If folks would obey these Ten Commandments the world would be a much happier place.
Regards,
MG
Do you think the world would be a happier place if we obeyed everything Moses taught? For example, if the bishop's daughter becomes a prostitute, should she be burned alive? (Leviticus 21:9). Should working on Saturday be a capital offense? (Exodus 35:2) If you get married and upon examining your wife on your wedding night you can't find proof that she was a virgin, should she be stoned to death on the front porch of her father's house? (Deuteronomy 22:13–21)
Would the world be a much happier place if we committed genocide against people with different religious views as Moses taught in Deuteronomy 20:16-18?
Of course you have excuses to think these values and commandments are no longer relevant and somehow aren't a part of the Judeo-Christian values you aspire to. But the question is how do you decide which parts of the Bible you should quote and embrace, and which parts you should ignore? You probably think Jesus somehow fulfilled the law and made much of the Old Testament irrelevant, but how do we know which parts are still relevant and which are not?
ok, let's do that. first, however, Doc already said it well elsewhere...
