Secular folks should worry.

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honorentheos
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by honorentheos »

CHAPTER XI.
CONCERNING ECCLESIASTICAL PRINCIPALITIES
It only remains now to speak of ecclesiastical principalities, touching which all difficulties are prior to getting possession, because they are acquired either by capacity or good fortune, and they can be held without either; for they are sustained by the ancient ordinances of religion, which are so all-powerful, and of such a character that the principalities may be held no matter how their princes behave and live. These princes alone have states and do not defend them; and they have subjects and do not rule them; and the states, although unguarded, are not taken from them, and the subjects, although not ruled, do not care, and they have neither the desire nor the ability to alienate themselves. Such principalities only are secure and happy. But being upheld by powers, to which the human mind cannot reach, I shall speak no more of them, because, being exalted and maintained by God, it would be the act of a presumptuous and rash man to discuss them.

Nevertheless, if any one should ask of me how comes it that the Church has attained such greatness in temporal power, seeing that from Alexander backwards the Italian potentates (not only those who have been called potentates, but every baron and lord, though the smallest) have valued the temporal power very slightly—yet now a king of France trembles before it, and it has been able to drive him from Italy, and to ruin the Venetians—although this may be very manifest, it does not appear to me superfluous to recall it in some measure to memory.

Before Charles, King of France, passed into Italy,[1] this country was under the dominion of the Pope, the Venetians, the King of Naples, the Duke of Milan, and the Florentines. These potentates had two principal anxieties: the one, that no foreigner should enter Italy under arms; the other, that none of themselves should seize more territory. Those about whom there was the most anxiety were the Pope and the Venetians. To restrain the Venetians the union of all the others was necessary, as it was for the defence of Ferrara; and to keep down the Pope they made use of the barons of Rome, who, being divided into two factions, Orsini and Colonnesi, had always a pretext for disorder, and, standing with arms in their hands under the eyes of the Pontiff, kept the pontificate weak and powerless. And although there might arise sometimes a courageous pope, such as Sixtus, yet neither fortune nor wisdom could rid him of these annoyances. And the short life of a pope is also a cause of weakness; for in the ten years, which is the average life of a pope, he can with difficulty lower one of the factions; and if, so to speak, one people should almost destroy the Colonnesi, another would arise hostile to the Orsini, who would support their opponents, and yet would not have time to ruin the Orsini. This was the reason why the temporal powers of the pope were little esteemed in Italy.

Alexander the Sixth arose afterwards, who of all the pontiffs that have ever been showed how a pope with both money and arms was able to prevail; and through the instrumentality of the Duke Valentino, and by reason of the entry of the French, he brought about all those things which I have discussed above in the actions of the duke. And although his intention was not to aggrandize the Church, but the duke, nevertheless, what he did contributed to the greatness of the Church, which, after his death and the ruin of the duke, became the heir to all his labours.

Pope Julius came afterwards and found the Church strong, possessing all the Romagna, the barons of Rome reduced to impotence, and, through the chastisements of Alexander, the factions wiped out; he also found the way open to accumulate money in a manner such as had never been practised before Alexander’s time. Such things Julius not only followed, but improved upon, and he intended to gain Bologna, to ruin the Venetians, and to drive the French out of Italy. All of these enterprises prospered with him, and so much the more to his credit, inasmuch as he did everything to strengthen the Church and not any private person. He kept also the Orsini and Colonnesi factions within the bounds in which he found them; and although there was among them some mind to make disturbance, nevertheless he held two things firm: the one, the greatness of the Church, with which he terrified them; and the other, not allowing them to have their own cardinals, who caused the disorders among them. For whenever these factions have their cardinals they do not remain quiet for long, because cardinals foster the factions in Rome and out of it, and the barons are compelled to support them, and thus from the ambitions of prelates arise disorders and tumults among the barons. For these reasons his Holiness Pope Leo[2] found the pontificate most powerful, and it is to be hoped that, if others made it great in arms, he will make it still greater and more venerated by his goodness and infinite other virtues.

[1] Charles VIII invaded Italy in 1494.

[2] Pope Leo X was the Cardinal de’ Medici.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Res Ipsa »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:22 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:56 am
I think I explained, in painstaking detail, why I think it’s certainly possible that librarians have included inappropriate books in a library. If or when it happens, it’s a problem that should be addressed.

What it isn’t is an existential crisis on which hangs the future of civil society.
Res Ipsa, I have enjoyed our back and forth. Thank you for jumping in.

I am happy to see that you, along with malkie, are open to removing books from public schools if they are found to be pornographic or inappropriate for young readers. And yes, I am agreed that there needs to be a general consensus by concerned parents before action is taken. I do think, however, that parents should have the final say, not school boards or library associations.

I do think that what is happening now does show an indication of some of the issues coming down the pike that could result in significant changes in society. Some not for the better. That’s why we need to vigilant and discerning and come to certain compromises along the way so that civility rules the day.

The problem is, however, that some of the forces that would change society into something we wouldn’t have even fathomed a few decades ago have become powerful through the use of social networks and governmental groups to change the course of our social fabric.

Trans beauty pageants for children? C’mon. What’s next?

I’m happy to know that there are some folks that believe in the absence of any god and yet have the light within them that says, “Wrong is wrong”.

LDS folks would call that the Light of Christ. Secular folks (yes, I will continue to use that word) would call that ‘conscience’.

Regards,
MG
I’ll bet only one of us has attended a Trans beauty pageant. Well, it wasn’t just a trans beauty pageant. Trans was one of the different categories in the pageant. I don’t recall them all, but “drag” was a separate category, as was “lesbian.”

Beauty pageants for cis women have been child friendly for decades. In fact there are child beauty pageants. Would you take the position that a child attending a beauty pageant like the Miss America pageant was a threat to civil society? If so, why would you think that a child attending a beauty pageant for transwomen is any different? Because it’s a sin? Because you are personally disgusted by transwomen?

I think that whether a child attends a beauty pageant of any kind falls within the realm of parental decision making.

But, you completely misunderstand the basis of concept of appropriateness. It has nothing to do with the light of Christ or conscience or Jiminy Cricket. The only moral dimension to my thinking is whether reading a given book is harmful to children in any given age range. I have no expertise in that, which is why I want to know the reasoning behind why the books were included in the first place.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
Marcus
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:14 am
Marcus wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:02 am
No. You're the one quoting from a 2019 'daily signal' op Ed piece, and then from a Florida commnentary that repeats a claim that seems to be the same one already debunked by Snopes. You do the research, and you prove your claims.
Care to link to the appropriate Snopes review and the actual claim being debunked?

Also, it’s important to note that:

Florida does not issue statewide bans on specific books, Bryan Griffin, DeSantis' press secretary, told USA TODAY in an email. Instead, under the new law, "the state sets guidelines regarding content, and the local school districts are responsible for enforcing them," he said

These content guidelines require specialists to review reading materials and prohibit reading materials that are "inappropriate for the grade level and age group for which the material is used" or contain "pornographic content.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 876468001/
Not too scary, right?

Regards,
MG
So, you want me to link to "the actual claim being debunked," even though you just posted a paragraph from an article titled:

Fact check: Fake list of banned Florida books circulates widely online."

Read what you posted. And you still need to post references supporting your earlier claims, or at least the one left--you already debunked one claim yourself. Thanks in advance.
honorentheos
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by honorentheos »

Another example of claims religion serves as the necessary glue holding a society together.

https://www.thedailystar.net/opinion/vi ... ia-3237371

But the humour ends there. Russia's apparent reversion to warlordism has been abetted by a strain of Russian religious fundamentalism that openly celebrates death. Some Russian clergy have been telling their congregations that they can "become themselves" only through the act of killing. The "special military operation" in Ukraine, they are told, is a struggle for "all of God's creation." As one of Putin's chief propagandists, Vladimir Solovyov, said in a New Year's message on Russian television, "Life is highly overrated. Why fear what is inevitable? Especially when we're going to heaven. Death is the end of one earthly path and the beginning of another. Don't let fear of death influence decisions. It's only worth living for something you can die for, that's the way it should be… we are fighting against satanists. This is a holy war, and we have to win."

Likewise, Magomed Khitanaev, a Chechen theologian and Russian army commander, portrays Ukraine as a latter-day Sodom and Gomorrah, "We're asking: Oh, Ukrainians, why did you permit gay parades in Kyiv, Kharkiv, and Odessa? Why did you permit it? Why didn't you come out against them, against your government that was overtaken by fascists? Without shame before God, people, they are openly, manifestly spreading their filth."
MG 2.0
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

honorentheos wrote:
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:58 am


I think that both Harlow and the Woke Busters need to show up at their local school board meetings and bring/show evidence one way or the other that proves their case and then let other parents have time to assimilate and check out the pros and cons of each witness. Then everyone involved should gather together again and come to an understanding face to face.

This online social media back and forth without any real fact checking is a dangerous game of sourcing and of misunderstanding/misinformation.

Is Harlow telling the complete truth? Is he leaving out important information that might lessen his argument. Do you know one way or the other for a fact?

This a problem. Social media back and forth, shadow banning and the like.

Thanks for posting this, honor, but do you really want or expect us to take this person/account seriously as a matter of fact?

Regards,
MG
honorentheos wrote: You brought the social media rumors to the board, son.
Pardon my curiosity…but what’s with this ‘son’ business? I think you addressed me in this manner at least one other time if memory serves. I’m probably old enough to be your father.
honorentheos wrote: You are the problem.
Councilor? Therapist? Diagnostician?
honorentheos wrote: Remember, I've stated you are free to change your approach to allow for inquiry into the foundational evidence.
And why would I choose to do that?
honorentheos wrote: It seems you only cared about looking into sources when they contradict your views. Funny how that works.
Apples and oranges.
honorentheos wrote: Want to start over and engage in good faith?
Are you playing for ‘top dog’?

This post of yours, honor, truth be told…is a bit ‘off’. Drinking this evening? Smoking some primo weed?

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:59 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:22 am


Res Ipsa, I have enjoyed our back and forth. Thank you for jumping in.

I am happy to see that you, along with malkie, are open to removing books from public schools if they are found to be pornographic or inappropriate for young readers. And yes, I am agreed that there needs to be a general consensus by concerned parents before action is taken. I do think, however, that parents should have the final say, not school boards or library associations.

I do think that what is happening now does show an indication of some of the issues coming down the pike that could result in significant changes in society. Some not for the better. That’s why we need to vigilant and discerning and come to certain compromises along the way so that civility rules the day.

The problem is, however, that some of the forces that would change society into something we wouldn’t have even fathomed a few decades ago have become powerful through the use of social networks and governmental groups to change the course of our social fabric.

Trans beauty pageants for children? C’mon. What’s next?

I’m happy to know that there are some folks that believe in the absence of any god and yet have the light within them that says, “Wrong is wrong”.

LDS folks would call that the Light of Christ. Secular folks (yes, I will continue to use that word) would call that ‘conscience’.

Regards,
MG
I’ll bet only one of us has attended a Trans beauty pageant. Well, it wasn’t just a trans beauty pageant. Trans was one of the different categories in the pageant. I don’t recall them all, but “drag” was a separate category, as was “lesbian.”

Beauty pageants for cis women have been child friendly for decades. In fact there are child beauty pageants. Would you take the position that a child attending a beauty pageant like the Miss America pageant was a threat to civil society? If so, why would you think that a child attending a beauty pageant for transwomen is any different? Because it’s a sin? Because you are personally disgusted by transwomen?

I think that whether a child attends a beauty pageant of any kind falls within the realm of parental decision making.

But, you completely misunderstand the basis of concept of appropriateness. It has nothing to do with the light of Christ or conscience or Jiminy Cricket. The only moral dimension to my thinking is whether reading a given book is harmful to children in any given age range. I have no expertise in that, which is why I want to know the reasoning behind why the books were included in the first place.
That, sir, was an interesting and enlightening post to read. I’m learning more about you as a person.

Thank you for sharing this.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Marcus wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:04 am
And you still need to post references supporting your earlier claims…
Are you indirectly saying that you believe the claims of inappropriate books being placed in school libraries and/or classrooms is an untruth and/or fiction? And you’re serious?

Just want to get that straight.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Would DeSantis put this out without doing some fact checking?

https://nypost.com/2023/03/08/desantis- ... a-schools/

Your doubt against his word and those that do his foot work before he says a word in public.

I’ll take what I’m hearing from DeSantis and other reputable leaders and parents over a random naysayer on the internet.

Regards,
MG
honorentheos
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by honorentheos »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:49 am
Pardon my curiosity…but what’s with this ‘son’ business? I think you addressed me in this manner at least one other time if memory serves. I’m probably old enough to be your father.
Your argumentation is not consistent with your claimed age. You have so much to learn, and yet so little time to do it.
honorentheos wrote: You are the problem.
Councilor? Therapist? Diagnostician?
Remember your post being responded to here?
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:58 am
honorentheos wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:18 am
MG,

Do you agree with "Woke Busting" school libraries?
I think that both Harlow and the Woke Busters need to show up at their local school board meetings and bring/show evidence one way or the other that proves their case and then let other parents have time to assimilate and check out the pros and cons of each witness. Then everyone involved should gather together again and come to an understanding face to face.

This online social media back and forth without any real fact checking is a dangerous game of sourcing and of misunderstanding/misinformation.

Is Harlow telling the complete truth? Is he leaving out important information that might lessen his argument. Do you know one way or the other for a fact?

This a problem. Social media back and forth, shadow banning and the like.

Thanks for posting this, honor, but do you really want or expect us to take this person/account seriously as a matter of fact?

Regards,
MG
You are the problem.
honorentheos wrote: Remember, I've stated you are free to change your approach to allow for inquiry into the foundational evidence.
And why would I choose to do that?
You? We've established you wouldn't. Rhetorically I'm speaking to a version of you with genuine interest in truth seeking.
honorentheos wrote: It seems you only cared about looking into sources when they contradict your views. Funny how that works.
Apples and oranges.
Uh, not really.

Anyway, boomer. What do you have to say about boomer politics and the collapse of the American middle class on your watch? Since the OP is about generational behavior and civil society and all.
honorentheos
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by honorentheos »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:06 am
Would DeSantis put this out without doing some fact checking?
I quoted The Prince for a reason.
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