Secular folks should worry.

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Morley
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Morley »

Mental Gymnast, you decry victimization, while wailing oh how you're a victim.

Your entire screed amounted to a reposting of this...
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:58 pm
Image
...with you adding your new enemies, Gen Z and 'secularists,' into the mix.

True to form, when you were asked to provide specific references to support your argument, you demanded that others follow your links and prove your case for you.

As honor points out, you use your religion as a stand-in for your political leanings. That way, you can justify what you believe as coming from God. Using that strategy, you can also vilify your opponents by claiming that they're working against God.

When malkie complains that you're misrepresenting his arguments, you claim 'no harm, no foul.' When doc says that your links don't provide what you say they will, you call him a lazy ____ . For the most part, you ignore Res's arguments entirely.

What am I missing?
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Res Ipsa »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:39 am
The link and subsequent comments are dealing specifically with Florida schools supposedly stocking their book shelves with pornography. Because MG is trolling he can’t keep his narrative straight, he was unable to verify whether or not any of these schools in Florida were actually identified as having any of these pornographic books. Instead, he moves off the Florida piece and claims he was talking about all sorts of schools across the country.

Why link Kish back to a link and comments about Florida then?

It’s because he was just baiting Kish into nonsense with links and comments that aren’t actually grounded in fact, but rather assertion by religionists who’re making claims they haven’t backed up, but are readily gobbled up by people like the Mongrel.

- Doc
I could be mistaken, Doc, but some replies included links to library databases that appeared to show school libraries do hold some of these titles. In any case, I fully understand what DeSantis is up to, probably better than most here. Without spending time tracking down this stuff to prove the case, I can say that in principle I think material of this type should not be in public school libraries for the reasons I stated, if it is. All the nonsense about pornography and grooming is disgusting garbage designed to dehumanize others. Sadly, extremists on the Right are getting a lot of mileage out of provoking panic through tactics like these, as you know. I know that too. That said, I see nothing wrong with stating my view about the appropriateness of such material in a public school environment.
That’s my understanding, too.
he/him
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Marcus wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:02 am
…your lack of logic.
Just a word on this. This seems to be a common theme. I make absolutely no claim to always acting/behaving/communicating in a logical/linear fashion. But I don’t see that as a reason to discount ideas and nonlinear approaches to a topic and/or discussion. To weaponize logic and use it as a bludgeon in order to prohibit the exchange of ideas and feelings is a tactic used by logicians to shut down debate and access to information.

In other words, I may often not follow a strict line of reasoning to get from point A to point B. I may and do hop and move all over the place as I toss things around in my mind and then in turn with what I say. I suppose all I can say is take it or leave it. Not to place myself into the category of ‘great minds’ (by any stretch), but I would ask how many great minds have been individuals that were always logical and linear in their thinking processes? How many great minds went from a point A to a point B and ended up at point C? Or circumnavigated a bit, wading through waters that might be considered to be ‘illogical’ by strict logicians and/or technical orators/rhetorics?

Your hubris in using so called logic as a weapon to squelch dissent from a worldview that you are committed to is readily apparent. You are able to get away with it simply because others are also on board with similar worldviews and are willing to submit to ‘reason and logic’ as a shield against ideas and ideals which may conflict with current cultural fads and moral constructs.

I find your tactics and those used by others to be rather ‘cold’, brittle, and inflexible in comparison and/or held to other ways of seeing reality and the world of ideas that don’t always fall into a nice tidy little box of logic, statistical analysis, and strict linear thinking and reasoning.

Logic is overrated. Especially for those that don’t always have this pattern of thinking foremost in their mind as they’re tossing thoughts and ideas around. Sure, you can cut and paste and take disconnected thoughts and put them back together and shout ‘illogical!” and that will act as a restriction and/or impasse to sharing ideas and opinions. You require language and thinking to conform to a certain pattern or it’s not acceptable.

Well, I don’t accept that. Knowing that by admitting to the fact that my approach to things might not always follow a strict and cohesive logical direction may invite ridicule and condescending remarks and accusations.

So be it. So let it continue.

Nonetheless, I think interesting thoughts and ideas have been shared during the thread. No minds have been changed one way or the other but it’s good to get varying points of view and positions on the table.

Thanks to those that engaged in a civil fashion.

One thing I suppose we can all agree on without having to twist and turn ourselves into logistical pretzels is that our culture/society has and is changing in ways that all of us should be concerned with no matter whether belief in God or non belief are entered into the equation. No matter whether we consider our selves to be on the political spectrum. The changes in our world are either trending in a positive or negative trajectory depending on our own worldview and views on morality.

The ‘culture wars’ are and will continue to be part of the fabric of modern life. Conflict is predictable and necessary as any resolution and/or compromises are found.

Squelching free speech and expression of ideas through whatever manner should be discouraged and be subject to criticism by any person with an open mind and open heart. That applies to those who might find themselves on opposite sides of any divide which may exist.

Regards,
MG
Last edited by MG 2.0 on Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:27 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:39 am


I could be mistaken, Doc, but some replies included links to library databases that appeared to show school libraries do hold some of these titles. In any case, I fully understand what DeSantis is up to, probably better than most here. Without spending time tracking down this stuff to prove the case, I can say that in principle I think material of this type should not be in public school libraries for the reasons I stated, if it is. All the nonsense about pornography and grooming is disgusting garbage designed to dehumanize others. Sadly, extremists on the Right are getting a lot of mileage out of provoking panic through tactics like these, as you know. I know that too. That said, I see nothing wrong with stating my view about the appropriateness of such material in a public school environment.
That’s my understanding, too.
… some replies included links to library databases that appeared to show school libraries do hold some of these titles
Ah, maybe I missed the links to library databases. Perhaps a good Samaritan would link me to the post I missed?

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:54 pm
I am less comfortable with the impulse many have to use school for social engineering.
That pretty much wraps up the concerns that I and others that are middle to right have in our views and concerns on the purpose of government/education.

That was the concern that has been underlying everything I’ve expressed in this thread. However inadequately as some will point out. 😉

My last post rather inadequately (adequately?) points out the ways and means that I approach free discussion and the tossing around of ideas.

But the point still stands.

Do we feel comfortable with the social engagement which we have seen in our educational system over the course of many years? Some will say yes. Some will say no. Some will say, “What social engineering?” 🤣

Regards,
MG
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Morley wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:25 pm

When malkie complains that you're misrepresenting his arguments, you claim 'no harm, no foul.'
I am not able to see where I victimized malkie at all. He decided to take offense over something trivial and left the conversation. I, on the other hand, even though barraged with one point of criticism or another stayed engaged.

Not to place myself in a superior position but, gosh, aren’t we all big boys and girls?

Now before you go all prickly, read my rather long post a couple posts back. This may help you understand where I’m coming from. Sometimes that annoys people and/or causes a certain amount of consternation. That’s understandable. But it won’t change. Take it or leave it. I’m not you and you’re not me. We have different ways and means of expressing ourselves. I may be somewhat ‘autistic’ in one area and you may be somewhat ‘autistic’ in another. We view the world from different and yet reasoned points of view.

Why do we spend so much time hammering each other over differences in the way we express ideas? It’s the ideas that are important. Not always presentation.

Anyway, I do feel bad that malkie and others may at times misunderstand my intent and/or purpose. That may be a result of my inadequacy in making myself clear and being precise in my language and argument.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:28 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:54 pm
I am less comfortable with the impulse many have to use school for social engineering.
That pretty much wraps up the concerns that I and others that are middle to right have in our views and concerns on the purpose of government/education.
:roll:

Image

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Morley »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:19 pm
Marcus wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:02 am
…your lack of logic.
Just a word on this. This seems to be a common theme. I make absolutely no claim to always acting/behaving/communicating in a logical/linear fashion. But I don’t see that as a reason to discount ideas and nonlinear approaches to a topic and/or discussion. To weaponize logic and use it as a bludgeon in order to prohibit the exchange of ideas and feelings is a tactic used by logicians to shut down debate and access to information.

In other words, I may often not follow a strict line of reasoning to get from point A to point B. I may and do hop and move all over the place as I toss things around in my mind and then in turn with what I say. I suppose all I can say is take it or leave it. Not to place myself into the category of ‘great minds’ (by any stretch), but I would ask how many great minds have been individuals that were always logical and linear in their thinking processes? How many great minds went from a point A to a point B and ended up at point C? Or circumnavigated a bit, wading through waters that might be considered to be ‘illogical’ by strict logicians and/or technical orators/rhetorics?

Your hubris in using so called logic as a weapon to squelch dissent from a worldview that you are committed to is readily apparent. You are able to get away with it simply because others are also on board with similar worldviews and are willing to submit to ‘reason and logic’ as a shield against ideas and ideals which may conflict with current cultural fads and moral constructs.

I find your tactics and those used by others to be rather ‘cold’, brittle, and inflexible in comparison and/or held to other ways of seeing reality and the world of ideas that don’t always fall into a nice tidy little box of logic, statistical analysis, and strict linear thinking and reasoning.

Logic is overrated. Especially for those that don’t always have this pattern of thinking foremost in their mind as they’re tossing thoughts and ideas around. Sure, you can cut and paste and take disconnected thoughts and put them back together and shout ‘illogical!” and that will act as a restriction and/or impasse to sharing ideas and opinions. You require language and thinking to conform to a certain pattern or it’s not acceptable.

Well, I don’t accept that. Knowing that by admitting to the fact that my approach to things might not always follow a strict and cohesive logical direction may invite ridicule and condescending remarks and accusations.

So be it. So let it continue.

Nonetheless, I think interesting thoughts and ideas have been shared during the thread. No minds have been changed one way or the other but it’s good to get varying points of view and positions on the table.

Thanks to those that engaged in a civil fashion.

One thing I suppose we can all agree on without having to twist and turn ourselves into logistical pretzels is that our culture/society has and is changing in ways that all of us should be concerned with no matter whether belief in God or non belief are entered into the equation. No matter whether we consider our selves to be on the political spectrum. The changes in our world are either trending in a positive or negative trajectory depending on our own worldview and views on morality.

The ‘culture wars’ are and will continue to be part of the fabric of modern life. Conflict is predictable and necessary as any resolution and/or compromises are found.

Squelching free speech and expression of ideas through whatever manner should be discouraged and be subject to criticism by any person with an open mind and open heart. That applies to those who might find themselves on opposite sides of any divide which may exist.

Regards,
MG
MG, what you don't seem to understand is that, at the very least, your lack of a logical, consistent, and coherent narrative makes your arguments difficult to comprehend. Good faith discussion with you becomes impossible.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Morley wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:54 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:19 pm


Just a word on this. This seems to be a common theme. I make absolutely no claim to always acting/behaving/communicating in a logical/linear fashion. But I don’t see that as a reason to discount ideas and nonlinear approaches to a topic and/or discussion. To weaponize logic and use it as a bludgeon in order to prohibit the exchange of ideas and feelings is a tactic used by logicians to shut down debate and access to information.

In other words, I may often not follow a strict line of reasoning to get from point A to point B. I may and do hop and move all over the place as I toss things around in my mind and then in turn with what I say. I suppose all I can say is take it or leave it. Not to place myself into the category of ‘great minds’ (by any stretch), but I would ask how many great minds have been individuals that were always logical and linear in their thinking processes? How many great minds went from a point A to a point B and ended up at point C? Or circumnavigated a bit, wading through waters that might be considered to be ‘illogical’ by strict logicians and/or technical orators/rhetorics?

Your hubris in using so called logic as a weapon to squelch dissent from a worldview that you are committed to is readily apparent. You are able to get away with it simply because others are also on board with similar worldviews and are willing to submit to ‘reason and logic’ as a shield against ideas and ideals which may conflict with current cultural fads and moral constructs.

I find your tactics and those used by others to be rather ‘cold’, brittle, and inflexible in comparison and/or held to other ways of seeing reality and the world of ideas that don’t always fall into a nice tidy little box of logic, statistical analysis, and strict linear thinking and reasoning.

Logic is overrated. Especially for those that don’t always have this pattern of thinking foremost in their mind as they’re tossing thoughts and ideas around. Sure, you can cut and paste and take disconnected thoughts and put them back together and shout ‘illogical!” and that will act as a restriction and/or impasse to sharing ideas and opinions. You require language and thinking to conform to a certain pattern or it’s not acceptable.

Well, I don’t accept that. Knowing that by admitting to the fact that my approach to things might not always follow a strict and cohesive logical direction may invite ridicule and condescending remarks and accusations.

So be it. So let it continue.

Nonetheless, I think interesting thoughts and ideas have been shared during the thread. No minds have been changed one way or the other but it’s good to get varying points of view and positions on the table.

Thanks to those that engaged in a civil fashion.

One thing I suppose we can all agree on without having to twist and turn ourselves into logistical pretzels is that our culture/society has and is changing in ways that all of us should be concerned with no matter whether belief in God or non belief are entered into the equation. No matter whether we consider our selves to be on the political spectrum. The changes in our world are either trending in a positive or negative trajectory depending on our own worldview and views on morality.

The ‘culture wars’ are and will continue to be part of the fabric of modern life. Conflict is predictable and necessary as any resolution and/or compromises are found.

Squelching free speech and expression of ideas through whatever manner should be discouraged and be subject to criticism by any person with an open mind and open heart. That applies to those who might find themselves on opposite sides of any divide which may exist.

Regards,
MG
MG, what you don't seem to understand is that, at the very least, your lack of a logical, consistent, and coherent narrative makes your arguments difficult to comprehend. Good faith discussion with you becomes impossible.
Nah…I wouldn’t say impossible…just a challenge. Tell you what. I’ll accept you for the way you present yourself…which may at times be difficult…and you try and do the same?

Deal? 🙂

Or…by gosh…you can just ignore me as a babbling idiot. 🤪

Regards,
MG
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:52 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:28 pm


That pretty much wraps up the concerns that I and others that are middle to right have in our views and concerns on the purpose of government/education.
:roll:

Image

- Doc
Touché

I guess it then becomes an issue of what kind of social engineering we are comfortable with.

Regards,
MG
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