Secular folks should worry.

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MG 2.0
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

honorentheos wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:06 am
Anyway, boomer.
That can be considered a derogatory slur.

But that may not be a ‘thing’ according to your code of ethics, whatever that code might be or not be.

I think this conversation has run its course from where I sit.

A lot of food for thought.

I’ll check back again at a later time to see if there is anything ‘new under the sun’. As it is, I think some interesting positions and thoughts were expressed on this thread for all to see. Thanks to all those who participated.

I’ll be interested to see what others have to say at this point.

Have a good week!

Regards,
MG
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Res Ipsa »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:31 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:20 am

But your label “secularist” doesn’t say anything about what secularists believe.
This might be a good time for you to tell us what you DO believe and whether or not you are or are not a secularist.

I, for one, don’t actually know what your answer will be…with all the ‘fuzziness’ you’ve thrown in, but please, tell us what you believe and what ‘label’ would most apply to you as a person.

You seem to have taken some umbrage in the way I’ve been communicating and implying…still…that I am a bigot and hate others. Maybe we will not be able to get past that false perception that you have.

Oh well.

Regards,
MG
Why, thank you. I very much appreciate the fact that you stopped telling me what I believe and asked me.

I’m not aware of any label that would accurately define my worldview. I certainly don’t identify myself as part of any ism based on my stance toward the existence of Gods. It doesn’t tell you anything about my worldview or my opinion on any given issue.

My conception of morality is generally centered on harm to my fellow humans. And harm is generally grounded for me in evidence. In my view, for example, masterbation is not a moral issue. In fact, in my world view, the sex based guilt and shaming in Mormonism is immoral because it is harmful to the sexual development and experience of young people.

Parts of my worldview are philosophically similar to Bhuddism. I’m a fan of the Bhuddist concept of compassion that flows from the recognition that other people are human beings just like me and the concept of universal suffering.

On death, I’m something like an Epicurean.

On Justice, I’m something like a Rawlsian.

On law, I’m something like a critical theorist.

Get the picture? Pick a subject and I can tell you how I think of it. But I don’t have a grand unifying theory of life the universe and everything.

Labels are tools of convenience. They should never be mistaken for real living humans.

I don’t take “umbrage” at your use of them “secularism.” I think it’s a mental construct that helps you justify bigotry towards people who don’t share your stance toward God.

On the subject of library books. First, I don’t think the fate of civil society hangs on whether the the three specific books are or are not included in a given school library. Second, none of the three books qualify as “pornography,” so the issue isn’t whether or not we should put pornography in school libraries. The issue is whether these three books should be included in a school library.

How I think about this question is fairly complicated and it’s past my bedtime. I’ll lay it out when I have time.
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honorentheos
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by honorentheos »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:15 am
honorentheos wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:06 am
Anyway, boomer.
That can be considered a derogatory slur.
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:00 pm
Views of morality with GenZ are continuing a radical change in regards to honesty/lying and what used to be considered moral behavior.
No question about the above being derogatory.

You ignored the point, though. Where's your accountability for your own generation?

"But we loved Jesus!"

You oversaw the radical wealth gap shift and erosion of the middle class, ignored climate science, opposed social changes that include greater equality and actual liberty, and are refusing to own the mistakes of your selfishness while claiming it's all because younger generations you took from to feed your greed don't have Jesus in their hearts.

Yeah, the conversation was over before you started, son. Run back to Tucker and Shawn to sing you a lullaby and tell you what a good little crusader your were.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:24 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:14 am


Care to link to the appropriate Snopes review and the actual claim being debunked?

Also, it’s important to note that:


Not too scary, right?

Regards,
MG
Classic MG:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/flori ... libraries/
The tweeted list appears to have started out as an attempt at satire, although, as often happens on the internet, was quickly lifted from its original context and shared by those who assumed it was real. For example, teacher's union leader Randi Weingarten shared the list along with the exclamation, "Books we have taught for generations!!!!" She later deleted the tweet and apologized for posting the image, stating she should have verified its authenticity.

The list was originally posted by the owner of a Twitter account using the profile name "Freesus Patriot." That person stated the purpose of the original post was to mock various schools in Florida that were removing books from shelves in response to political pressure.
- Doc
Notice how the troll moves on quickly without any sort of mea culpa after being debunked? Classic MG.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
Marcus
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:06 am
Would DeSantis put this out without doing some fact checking?

https://nypost.com/2023/03/08/desantis- ... a-schools/

Your doubt against his word and those that do his foot work before he says a word in public.

I’ll take what I’m hearing from DeSantis and other reputable leaders and parents over a random naysayer on the internet.

Regards,
MG
Are you kidding me? You yourself posted an article documenting the first lie. This has got to be satire, right? Surely you are not this naïve. Surely.
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:57 am
Marcus wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:04 am
you still need to post references supporting your earlier claims…
Are you indirectly saying that you believe the claims of inappropriate books being placed in school libraries and/or classrooms is an untruth and/or fiction? And you’re serious?

Just want to get that straight.

Regards,
MG
Here's what i actually posted, before you truncated it so hilariously:
So, you want me to link to "the actual claim being debunked," even though you just posted a paragraph from an article titled:

Fact check: Fake list of banned Florida books circulates widely online."

Read what you posted. And you still need to post references supporting your earlier claims, or at least the one left--you already debunked one claim yourself. Thanks in advance.
All one can do at this point is laugh. You think people can't follow a thread? Or is it only you who can't? A cornered rat foaming at the mouth has nothing on your lack of logic.
Last edited by Marcus on Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:45 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:29 pm
…fear and hatred of your fellow humans permeates your worldview.
My word. How could I even live with myself if this was true? I’ve spent my life trying to follow the teachings of Christ. Even when I didn’t believe. I’ve never been on a ‘hate train’. Where have I even given any indication that I hate you or any other human beings? ...
How do you live with yourself, since you brought it up? You give indication in every single thread in which you participate that you hate people who believe differently than you. You announce regularly the groups of people you hate and you specify individuals as well, which you have done numerous times in this thread alone. You're a one person 'hate train.' How do you live with yourself?
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Kishkumen
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Kishkumen »

The link and subsequent comments are dealing specifically with Florida schools supposedly stocking their book shelves with pornography. Because MG is trolling he can’t keep his narrative straight, he was unable to verify whether or not any of these schools in Florida were actually identified as having any of these pornographic books. Instead, he moves off the Florida piece and claims he was talking about all sorts of schools across the country.

Why link Kish back to a link and comments about Florida then?

It’s because he was just baiting Kish into nonsense with links and comments that aren’t actually grounded in fact, but rather assertion by religionists who’re making claims they haven’t backed up, but are readily gobbled up by people like the Mongrel.

- Doc
I could be mistaken, Doc, but some replies included links to library databases that appeared to show school libraries do hold some of these titles. In any case, I fully understand what DeSantis is up to, probably better than most here. Without spending time tracking down this stuff to prove the case, I can say that in principle I think material of this type should not be in public school libraries for the reasons I stated, if it is. All the nonsense about pornography and grooming is disgusting garbage designed to dehumanize others. Sadly, extremists on the Right are getting a lot of mileage out of provoking panic through tactics like these, as you know. I know that too. That said, I see nothing wrong with stating my view about the appropriateness of such material in a public school environment.
Last edited by Kishkumen on Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:39 am
The link and subsequent comments are dealing specifically with Florida schools supposedly stocking their book shelves with pornography. Because MG is trolling he can’t keep his narrative straight, he was unable to verify whether or not any of these schools in Florida were actually identified as having any of these pornographic books. Instead, he moves off the Florida piece and claims he was talking about all sorts of schools across the country.

Why link Kish back to a link and comments about Florida then?

It’s because he was just baiting Kish into nonsense with links and comments that aren’t actually grounded in fact, but rather assertion by religionists who’re making claims they haven’t backed up, but are readily gobbled up by people like the Mongrel.

- Doc
I could be mistaken, Doc, but some replies included links to library databases that appeared to show school libraries do hold some of these titles. In any case, I fully understand what DeSantis is up to, probably better than most here. Without spending time tracking down this stuff to prove the case, I can say that in principle I think material of this type should not be in public school libraries for the reasons I stated, if it is. All the nonsense about pornography and grooming is disgusting garbage designed to dehumanize others. Sadly, extremists on the Right are getting a lot of mileage out of provoking panic through tactics like these, as you know. I know that too. That said, I see nothing wrong with staying my view about the appropriateness of such material in a public school environment.
The problem is that I see conservatives saying these books linked on page 19 were in schools, but I can’t track down any specifics like what specific school were they in, who authorized those specific books, etc. I see the claim of someone holding a book up for a Twitter post and nebulous claims these and other ‘pornographic’ books were in schools. My problem with the claims is the accusation exists without proof. It shouldn’t be hard to state that:

“The book Gender Queer was found in Osceola Middle School in Ocala, Florida. The librarian confirmed it was part of their LGBTQ+ section, and the books available were approved by the school board for FY 2022. Other books authorized by the school board and that were found at the middle school were x-y-z. They were removed at so-and-so’s request.”

If conservatives didn’t have a history of lying constantly to move their agenda fwd I might take their claims with regard to these books at face value, but they’ve lost all credibility, so I need specifics and specific people who are involved in this sort of thing.

What I’m seeing when I type this into a Google search:

“inappropriate books found at florida middle school”

is a hit like this (second result):

https://www.fox13news.com/news/16-inapp ... -officials
Polk County Public Schools is conducting a review of 16 library books whose content has been formally challenged.

The group County Citizens Defending Freedom said in a statement posted on its website that the books "imprint obscene, violent, pornographic, drug abuse, sexual abuse and suicide-related content upon the minds of minor students."



Two committees of educators, students, advocates, medical professionals and others will now review the books and make recommendations to the school board.
Here’s the list:
The following books have been identified for review:

"Almost Perfect" by Brian Katcher
"Beloved" by Toni Morrison
"The Bluest Eye" by Toni Morrison
"Drama" by Raina Telgemeier
"Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close" by Jonathan Foer
"George" by Alex Gino
"I am Jazz" by Jessica Herthel & Jazz Jennings
"It’s Perfectly Normal" by Robbie Harris
"The Kite Runner" by Khaled Hosseini
"More Happy Than Not" by Adam Silvera
"Nineteen Minutes" by Jodi Picoult
"Real Live Boyfriends" by E. Lockhart
"Thirteen Reasons Why" by Jay Asher
"Tricks" by Ellen Hopkins
"Two Boys Kissing" by David Levithan
"The Vincent Boys" by Abbi Glines
Taking the most salacious sounding title above, “Two Boys Kissing" by David Levithan, I googled:

“Two Boys Kissing" by David Levithan inappropriate passage”

and the best I could come up with was this result (top result):

https://booksbird.wordpress.com/2019/09 ... s-kissing/
Two Boys Kissing was challenged in the Fauquier High School library in Warrenton, Virginia by parent Jessica Wilson who launched a campaign after judging the book by its cover (you’re not supposed to do that right?), which unsurprisingly features two boys kissing.

Wilson used the school’s own policy regarding ‘public’ displays of affection to object to David Levithan’s book appearing in the library and demand its removal from Fauquier High School. A quote from The Falcon, the High School’s student newspaper, reads; “My first thought was that I was shocked. My second thought was, ‘who purchased this book for the library and why?’ My issue is with the teenage celebration of sexuality throughout the book. At my home, we can talk about what [my children] are going to watch or read, but this book just kind of felt snuck in the library. It also made me wonder, budgetary-wise, if the school is spending money for the proper resources. I cannot imagine that there wasn’t another, more appropriate book that could have been purchased that would’ve appealed to a wider audience.”

An internal review committee met to decide the fate of Levithan’s book in the school’s library and a majority decided the book should stay, however, Wilson appealed the decision forcing a second committee meeting to be called. During the second meeting, several people shared their opinions and several letters were read aloud including a letter from the author himself. Some in the meeting agreed with Wilson, suggesting the book is obscene while others defended the book arguing that the story could have a positive effect on LGBT teens (and perhaps others who need to show more empathy towards the LGBTQIA+ community). The review committee finally came to a unanimous decision to keep the book in the school’s library.
I’m getting the feeling that this story of ‘porno’ books in school libraries may not be the rager conservatives claim it is. That said, I think it’s healthy a parent can object to a book, and a committee reviews the objection. But is the list above really that horrific? “Beloved”? Really?

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Kishkumen »

Yeah, I thought It's Perfectly Normal looked like a really good book for young people. It's one I would have felt comfortable buying for my kids probably as early as 5th or 6th grade. The Two Boys Kissing book is charming and touching, from the looks of it. The idea that Toni Morrison's Beloved should be removed from a public school library is absurd. I agree with you that this is a tempest in a teapot, and this is everything that I would expect from the pot stirring liars on America's Right. Still, I think that, in principle, parents feel a need--and I don't think it is a bad thing--to assert their role as parents, who have some say about the content of their kids' education.

It seems to me that gender education, while valuable in my eyes, is definitely in a grey area. It naturally provokes discussion of the purpose of education. I should think that first and foremost education ought to be about teaching kids to read, write, perform basic math, and know something about the world (history, political science, science, etc.). Gender studies don't really fit into the, for lack of a better term, "canonical" range of childhood education. This is not telling people the biology of how babies are made. It is actually getting into murkier territory. My position is that public school should probably tend in the direction of less controversial and more fundamental topics and skills. I am less comfortable with the impulse many have to use school for social engineering.

If there could be some reasonable common ground openly stated, then it would defuse a lot of the rhetorical abuses and deception that are occurring, largely for the profit and manipulation of people on both sides of our pathetic duopoly. I am not saying that Democrats are as bad as Republicans here. Republicans have walked off the map, in my view, but I do not hold either side to be innocent, and, as far as the Dems go, I think gender and identity politics are a nice safe space for neoliberals to avoid doing anything truly substantive for the poor and the dying middle class.
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malkie
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by malkie »

Sorry, folks, for provoking this mess:
back on p17, malkie wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:00 pm
Government and governmental edicts become the norm. Almost religious in its intensity and application to the populace who are slowly becoming like sheep.
We're talking about Florida here, right?

And all of the other places where books are being banned, etc.
But I think it has been quite instructive to read the comments. My thanks to the people who took the time and spent the energy on the to and fro. and on unwinding the bookban information.
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