Secular folks should worry.

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Res Ipsa
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

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huckelberry wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 7:51 pm
Marcus wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 4:35 pm


Wow, that document is bizarre. Science is called materialistic science (another word for real, it seems.) The really bizarre goal though, was 20 year plan to have ID become the "dominant scientific theory." That's quite the oxymoron.
I found that wedge document disturbing. It is clearly a religious evangelizing project not science. I do not see it as having any place in a science class. Perhaps it would have a place in a world religions class. In the wedge document I found the vague waving about of references to the horrors of materialism disturbing. Why should bad stuff be a result of materialism. As a religious person I see the material world as something from God and understanding materialsm better is a window toward God. I feel quite sure that the horrors people sometimes link to materialism such as Stalin's enthusiasm for killing people result from human pride, love of power over others, greed and fear.

A wikapedia article about the wedge document ended with somebody suspecting that the wedge project aims at theocracy. I did not see anything directly about that and I am unsure how tight a definition of theocracy is in mind there. I do not like making that accusation but the broad and paranoid rejection of materialism makes me fear that the theocracy accusation may not be empty. Some say respect for our fellow man comes only from belief in God. I think it comes from a clear search for understanding of ourselves and those around us. Without these the idea of God may harm respect for others or be of little help. Clear understanding of ourselves and others is based upon observation of the real events and careful thought considering how those actions arise and work. This respect for understanding would be both science (informally and formally) and materialism.
I’m not aware of any evidence that the DI folks were aiming for theocracy. If the DI is Dominionist, that would be news to me.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

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Your description of ID is spot on, Dean Robbers. The connection of ID with God in the Kitzmiller case led the DI withdraw its support of the Dover School District, including three expert witnesses. From the DI’s perspective, Kitzmiller was a terrible test case for ID.

For a while, ID supporters tried to create an evidence-based theory - irreducible complexity. However, I believe it was shown to involve contradictory premises. It also overlooked the fact that features can evolve for one function and later be incorporated into another. The most well known example is the bacterial flagellum. There was another involving a specific type of blood clotting.

Irreducible complexity is pretty dead now as an evidence based theory. In evolution, it’s all god of the gaps.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 2:16 am
Your description of ID is spot on, Dean Robbers. The connection of ID with God in the Kitzmiller case led the DI withdraw its support of the Dover School District, including three expert witnesses. From the DI’s perspective, Kitzmiller was a terrible test case for ID.

For a while, ID supporters tried to create an evidence-based theory - irreducible complexity. However, I believe it was shown to involve contradictory premises. It also overlooked the fact that features can evolve for one function and later be incorporated into another. The most well known example is the bacterial flagellum. There was another involving a specific type of blood clotting.

Irreducible complexity is pretty dead now as an evidence based theory. In evolution, it’s all god of the gaps.
But do we still have to avoid scrapyards struck by tornadoes, in case a fully-assembled 747 falls on us?
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

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malkie wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 2:54 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 2:16 am
Your description of ID is spot on, Dean Robbers. The connection of ID with God in the Kitzmiller case led the DI withdraw its support of the Dover School District, including three expert witnesses. From the DI’s perspective, Kitzmiller was a terrible test case for ID.

For a while, ID supporters tried to create an evidence-based theory - irreducible complexity. However, I believe it was shown to involve contradictory premises. It also overlooked the fact that features can evolve for one function and later be incorporated into another. The most well known example is the bacterial flagellum. There was another involving a specific type of blood clotting.

Irreducible complexity is pretty dead now as an evidence based theory. In evolution, it’s all god of the gaps.
But do we still have to avoid scrapyards struck by tornadoes, in case a fully-assembled 747 falls on us?
Yes. Also, watch out for typing monkeys.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 3:29 am
malkie wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 2:54 am

But do we still have to avoid scrapyards struck by tornadoes, in case a fully-assembled 747 falls on us?
Yes. Also, watch out for typing monkeys.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 3:29 am
malkie wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 2:54 am

But do we still have to avoid scrapyards struck by tornadoes, in case a fully-assembled 747 falls on us?
Yes. Also, watch out for typing monkeys.
Oh crud, so we now have to stop reading Interpreter?
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Gadianton wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 1:52 am


Let me guess, MG, the percent of non-Christian signatures on the paper is about the same percent as non-Mormons who accept the Book of Mormon is an ancient record?
I won’t argue with you there. Which goes to show that there are other variables to consider.

And it is those variables that often make all the difference.

I’ve mentioned some of them during this thread. Anthropic Principle and Rare Earth Hypothesis will give a bigger bang for the buck for some folks than others. And that might be due to other experiential factors unique to a certain set of people.

Many variables, many outcomes.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

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I’ve mentioned some of them during this thread. Anthropic Principle
Yes, I realize that. I'm not going to get into a thousand tangents, but I'll point out one thing. Believing in both fine-tuning and intelligent design puts you in a weird conundrum. What you're saying is that God created the laws of physics as a necessary, but insufficient condition for complex life to arise, when he simply could have created the laws of physics such that the laws of physics are a necessary and sufficient condition for complex life to arise.

In the former situation abiogenesis can't happen but the field is dry and God just needs to light a match. Then life explodes and evolves to a point, but it can't cross the line of speciation, and so God jumps in to create all the different species including the hundreds of thousands of distinct species of beetles. The bacteria flagella must be specifically created by God, the human eye, and all the ID examples. But if you believe God had to create the entire physical backdrop such that life can thrive and evolve to a certain degree, then why do 95% of the job when loading the dice for the big bang? Why not fix the initial conditions such that life is guaranteed to evolve, and then he doesn't have to keep stepping in to perform tweaks? Or, why not let someone else believe that evolution is true, because God loaded the initial conditions of the big bang such that evolution would work all the way and not just partially?

You need ID in a framework where God organizes the earth from chaos. That's somewhat consistent with the Mormon view of things. Once you bring in fine-tuning, there is no such thing as chaos, only a finely engineered machine, a universe guaranteed to generate complex life. Believing in both means God created a finely engineered machine manufactured in China: it sorta produces life and sustains life, but it chokes at complex life, and God has to jerry-rig solutions for certain steps in the process to get the results he wants.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

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Res Ipsa wrote:The connection of ID with God in the Kitzmiller case led the DI withdraw its support of the Dover School District, including three expert witnesses. From the DI’s perspective, Kitzmiller was a terrible test case for ID.
I didn't know about that, very interesting; MG should definitely take note. I'm a little vague on the full history. I encountered ID in Behe's book, and then later Dembski's similar "specified complexity" idea (and numerous Internet threads). I read Black Box at Deseret Book every morning over several weeks while waiting for my carpool associates. I didn't believe in evolution before then, and that sealed the deal. I remember telling a co-worker that I rejected evolution even after being fully out of the Church for at least 4 years. I took college biology outside the Y, my teacher was Moslem, ill-tempered, and a die-hard believer in evolution. He argued intensely for evolution as if the class were challenging it, which nobody was. But he argued through analogies and all were bad arguments. I didn't see it as very important since the class text barely mentioned natural selection. Anyway, I began to change my mind on my first online forum, where I got trounced. I think the main difference between me and the apologists, because I started out pretty much where they are, is that I could recognize when I was getting my ass handed to me. I eventually read a few books and it was obvious after that, but I did appreciate Richard Dawkins similar criticism of how evolution is taught and that he thought it was ridiculous when he was young.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by malkie »

Gadianton wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 1:04 am
I’ve mentioned some of them during this thread. Anthropic Principle
Yes, I realize that. I'm not going to get into a thousand tangents, but I'll point out one thing. Believing in both fine-tuning and intelligent design puts you in a weird conundrum. What you're saying is that God created the laws of physics as a necessary, but insufficient condition for complex life to arise, when he simply could have created the laws of physics such that the laws of physics are a necessary and sufficient condition for complex life to arise.

In the former situation abiogenesis can't happen but the field is dry and God just needs to light a match. Then life explodes and evolves to a point, but it can't cross the line of speciation, and so God jumps in to create all the different species including the hundreds of thousands of distinct species of beetles. The bacteria flagella must be specifically created by God, the human eye, and all the ID examples. But if you believe God had to create the entire physical backdrop such that life can thrive and evolve to a certain degree, then why do 95% of the job when loading the dice for the big bang? Why not fix the initial conditions such that life is guaranteed to evolve, and then he doesn't have to keep stepping in to perform tweaks? Or, why not let someone else believe that evolution is true, because God loaded the initial conditions of the big bang such that evolution would work all the way and not just partially?

You need ID in a framework where God organizes the earth from chaos. That's somewhat consistent with the Mormon view of things. Once you bring in fine-tuning, there is no such thing as chaos, only a finely engineered machine, a universe guaranteed to generate complex life. Believing in both means God created a finely engineered machine manufactured in China: it sorta produces life and sustains life, but it chokes at complex life, and God has to jerry-rig solutions for certain steps in the process to get the results he wants.
Hmmmmm.

Might this require an inverse god-of-the-gaps setup: as the religious believers (and IDers) keep finding mechanisms that would require a god's hand for guidance, they identify another spot in the machine where a tweak is needed. It makes me think of the old non-CD carburetors, except god would be constantly not only tuning the carb but also adding more and more jets and adjusting screws to try to accommodate all of the special cases and try to keep the engine running smoothly.

Of course, perhaps she's really only a mechanical tinkerer at heart, and this is how she spends her retirement.
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