Secular folks should worry.

[MG 2.0]

Note MG makes an assertion, and then wants us to do the legwork for him. What an absolute mongrel.

- Doc

Lazy ____________ .

Afraid of what you might find?

Regards,
MG

[honorentheos]

MG,

Do you agree with "Woke Busting" school libraries?

I think that both Harlow and the Woke Busters need to show up at their local school board meetings and bring/show evidence one way or the other that proves their case and then let other parents have time to assimilate and check out the pros and cons of each witness. Then everyone involved should gather together again and come to an understanding face to face.

This online social media back and forth without any real fact checking is a dangerous game of sourcing and of misunderstanding/misinformation.

Is Harlow telling the complete truth? Is he leaving out important information that might lessen his argument. Do you know one way or the other for a fact?

This a problem. Social media back and forth, shadow banning and the like.

Thanks for posting this, honor, but do you really want or expect us to take this person/account seriously as a matter of fact?

Regards,
MG

You brought the social media rumors to the board, son. You are the problem. Remember, I've stated you are free to change your approach to allow for inquiry into the foundational evidence. It seems you only cared about looking into sources when they contradict your views. Funny how that works.

Want to start over and engage in good faith?

[Marcus]

What specific schools were these books pulled out of? I’m a little cagey these days with regard to conservative claims because they’ve been caught lying so often. I’m not saying those books weren’t in schools, but I’d like some proof so we can be sure we’re not being manipulated.

- Doc

I’ll give you a ‘self starter’ and then ask that you exercise some initiative and go on from there.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/11/02/ ... t-answers/

From the article:

Not only do parents have no idea what their children happen to pick up and read during a school day, but kids aren’t even allowed to bring books out of the classroom.

And even though the books aren’t part of the curriculum, a board member at the latest October meeting pointed out that nothing prevents a teacher from selecting one of the books to include in their lesson plans, even though it’s not part of district-mandated curriculum.

https://www.toddstarnes.com/education/f ... n-library/

Just a couple of quick hits doing a search. I’ll leave it you to conduct some more research and return and report.

Regards,
MG

No. You're the one quoting from a 2019 'daily signal' op Ed piece, and then from a Florida commnentary that repeats a claim that seems to be the same one already debunked by Snopes. You do the research, and you prove your claims.

And please, be sure to do it with credible sources.

[MG 2.0]

Do you ever stop lying?

https://www.discussmormonism.com/viewto ... 6#p2828216

- Doc

I have no idea why you posted this link as some kind of evidence that I am a liar. I’m about done with you this time around Doc. Please don’t troll around on this thread and try to derail it be trying to get a rise through using gutter language.

As I said, it’s beneath you.

Please?!

Regards,
MG

[Kishkumen]

Thanks, Doc. I did find evidence that these titles are or have been in public schools. I wouldn’t call this stuff pornographic, but I would say it is explicit and probably inappropriate for kids in a public-school environment. It is one thing to teach sex ed in order to learn the biology, but public schools are here to serve all of the public, not just the people who are not uptight about sex. After all, most kids can use the internet to look up gay sex or the definition of rimjob or whatever. I should think that they don’t need public school for that. Honestly, I would not buy some of these books for my own kids. One of them is pretty tasteful and tame. Anything that tastefully and tamely affirms gender diversity is OK with me, but then I do not speak for all parents.

Let’s be realistic. Sex is a sensitive topic, and the NSFW point is actually valid, in my opinion. If a large number of parents are upset about this stuff, then it is probably best to remove it from public school libraries. What bugs me about those who raise a ruckus about fascists banning books in public schools is that they completely disregard a large portion of fairly sane and decent people in our community who are simply uncomfortable having their kids learn about gay dating apps and how to give your gay partner a proper blow job in a public school environment.

What is funny and ironic is that some of them have no problem with arming school employees, as if we should all feel the same about the teacher carrying a 9 mm semiautomatic handgun in a third grade classroom.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Do you ever stop lying?

https://www.discussmormonism.com/viewto ... 6#p2828216

- Doc

I have no idea why you posted this link as some kind of evidence that I am a liar. I’m about done with you this time around Doc. Please don’t troll around on this thread and try to derail it be trying to get a rise through using gutter language.

As I said, it’s beneath you.

Please?!

Regards,
MG

Note, MG is trolling so hard he can’t remember why he told Kish to go to page 19 here:

https://www.discussmormonism.com/viewto ... 1#p2828131

Against this kind of stuff:

https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/02/15/ ... ata-shows/

Please take the time to explore the links and books which are presented.

That you would compare Florida and the fight to rid the schools of pornography with governmental/media and interest group influences on ‘sheep’ with the intent to lessen freedoms and diminish free speech is disheartening to say the least.

In your mind you may think this is government overreach. But in the mind of DeSantis and the parents of Florida and other places it’s a matter of protecting children from age inappropriate reading material.

I guess the question could be asked, “What do Secularists think about DeSantis and parents taking a stand?” I wouldn’t hazard to think that secularists, more often than not, are going to have a very different answer than religious folks.

The link and subsequent comments are dealing specifically with Florida schools supposedly stocking their book shelves with pornography. Because MG is trolling he can’t keep his narrative straight, he was unable to verify whether or not any of these schools in Florida were actually identified as having any of these pornographic books. Instead, he moves off the Florida piece and claims he was talking about all sorts of schools across the country.

Why link Kish back to a link and comments about Florida then?

It’s because he was just baiting Kish into nonsense with links and comments that aren’t actually grounded in fact, but rather assertion by religionists who’re making claims they haven’t backed up, but are readily gobbled up by people like the Mongrel.

- Doc

[MG 2.0]

No. You're the one quoting from a 2019 'daily signal' op Ed piece, and then from a Florida commnentary that repeats a claim that seems to be the same one already debunked by Snopes. You do the research, and you prove your claims.

Care to link to the appropriate Snopes review and the actual claim being debunked?

Also, it’s important to note that:

Florida does not issue statewide bans on specific books, Bryan Griffin, DeSantis' press secretary, told USA TODAY in an email. Instead, under the new law, "the state sets guidelines regarding content, and the local school districts are responsible for enforcing them," he said

These content guidelines require specialists to review reading materials and prohibit reading materials that are "inappropriate for the grade level and age group for which the material is used" or contain "pornographic content.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 876468001/

Not too scary, right?

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

No. You're the one quoting from a 2019 'daily signal' op Ed piece, and then from a Florida commnentary that repeats a claim that seems to be the same one already debunked by Snopes. You do the research, and you prove your claims.

Care to link to the appropriate Snopes review and the actual claim being debunked?

Also, it’s important to note that:

Florida does not issue statewide bans on specific books, Bryan Griffin, DeSantis' press secretary, told USA TODAY in an email. Instead, under the new law, "the state sets guidelines regarding content, and the local school districts are responsible for enforcing them," he said

These content guidelines require specialists to review reading materials and prohibit reading materials that are "inappropriate for the grade level and age group for which the material is used" or contain "pornographic content.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 876468001/

Not too scary, right?

Regards,
MG

Classic MG:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/flori ... libraries/

The tweeted list appears to have started out as an attempt at satire, although, as often happens on the internet, was quickly lifted from its original context and shared by those who assumed it was real. For example, teacher's union leader Randi Weingarten shared the list along with the exclamation, "Books we have taught for generations!!!!" She later deleted the tweet and apologized for posting the image, stating she should have verified its authenticity.

The list was originally posted by the owner of a Twitter account using the profile name "Freesus Patriot." That person stated the purpose of the original post was to mock various schools in Florida that were removing books from shelves in response to political pressure.

- Doc

[honorentheos]

Also, it’s important to note that:

Florida does not issue statewide bans on specific books, Bryan Griffin, DeSantis' press secretary, told USA TODAY in an email. Instead, under the new law, "the state sets guidelines regarding content, and the local school districts are responsible for enforcing them," he said

These content guidelines require specialists to review reading materials and prohibit reading materials that are "inappropriate for the grade level and age group for which the material is used" or contain "pornographic content.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 876468001/

Not too scary, right?

Regards,
MG

DeSantis' team made this seem like a bunch of rogue school districts overreacting when they made books off limits to students after the Florida law mandates books be removed from student access until they had been vetted. This is political tripe.

And you recall how civil society is intertwined with political and economic systems? Folks who engage in political gamesmanship are threats to civil society. Want to blame Gen Z for DeSantis? Just kidding. I know you agree with DeSantis so you do blame someone else by default. It's the game you've been playing for years now.

[honorentheos]

The Prince
by Nicolo Machiavelli
Translated by W. K. Marriott

CHAPTER XVIII.
CONCERNING THE WAY IN WHICH PRINCES SHOULD KEEP FAITH

Every one admits how praiseworthy it is in a prince to keep faith, and to live with integrity and not with craft. Nevertheless our experience has been that those princes who have done great things have held good faith of little account, and have known how to circumvent the intellect of men by craft, and in the end have overcome those who have relied on their word. You must know there are two ways of contesting,[2] the one by the law, the other by force; the first method is proper to men, the second to beasts; but because the first is frequently not sufficient, it is necessary to have recourse to the second. Therefore it is necessary for a prince to understand how to avail himself of the beast and the man. This has been figuratively taught to princes by ancient writers, who describe how Achilles and many other princes of old were given to the Centaur Chiron to nurse, who brought them up in his discipline; which means solely that, as they had for a teacher one who was half beast and half man, so it is necessary for a prince to know how to make use of both natures, and that one without the other is not durable. A prince, therefore, being compelled knowingly to adopt the beast, ought to choose the fox and the lion; because the lion cannot defend himself against snares and the fox cannot defend himself against wolves. Therefore, it is necessary to be a fox to discover the snares and a lion to terrify the wolves. Those who rely simply on the lion do not understand what they are about. Therefore a wise lord cannot, nor ought he to, keep faith when such observance may be turned against him, and when the reasons that caused him to pledge it exist no longer. If men were entirely good this precept would not hold, but because they are bad, and will not keep faith with you, you too are not bound to observe it with them. Nor will there ever be wanting to a prince legitimate reasons to excuse this non-observance. Of this endless modern examples could be given, showing how many treaties and engagements have been made void and of no effect through the faithlessness of princes; and he who has known best how to employ the fox has succeeded best.

But it is necessary to know well how to disguise this characteristic, and to be a great pretender and dissembler; and men are so simple, and so subject to present necessities, that he who seeks to deceive will always find someone who will allow himself to be deceived. One recent example I cannot pass over in silence. Alexander the Sixth did nothing else but deceive men, nor ever thought of doing otherwise, and he always found victims; for there never was a man who had greater power in asserting, or who with greater oaths would affirm a thing, yet would observe it less; nevertheless his deceits always succeeded according to his wishes,[3] because he well understood this side of mankind.

Therefore it is unnecessary for a prince to have all the good qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always to observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and to be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

And you have to understand this, that a prince, especially a new one, cannot observe all those things for which men are esteemed, being often forced, in order to maintain the state, to act contrary to fidelity,[4] friendship, humanity, and religion. Therefore it is necessary for him to have a mind ready to turn itself accordingly as the winds and variations of fortune force it, yet, as I have said above, not to diverge from the good if he can avoid doing so, but, if compelled, then to know how to set about it.

For this reason a prince ought to take care that he never lets anything slip from his lips that is not replete with the above-named five qualities, that he may appear to him who sees and hears him altogether merciful, faithful, humane, upright, and religious. There is nothing more necessary to appear to have than this last quality, inasmuch as men judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, because it belongs to everybody to see you, to few to come in touch with you. Every one sees what you appear to be, few really know what you are, and those few dare not oppose themselves to the opinion of the many, who have the majesty of the state to defend them; and in the actions of all men, and especially of princes, which it is not prudent to challenge, one judges by the result.

For that reason, let a prince have the credit of conquering and holding his state, the means will always be considered honest, and he will be praised by everybody; because the vulgar are always taken by what a thing seems to be and by what comes of it; and in the world there are only the vulgar, for the few find a place there only when the many have no ground to rest on.

One prince[5] of the present time, whom it is not well to name, never preaches anything else but peace and good faith, and to both he is most hostile, and either, if he had kept it, would have deprived him of reputation and kingdom many a time.

[2] “Contesting,” i.e. “striving for mastery.” Mr Burd points out that this passage is imitated directly from Cicero’s “De Officiis”: “Nam cum sint duo genera decertandi, unum per disceptationem, alterum per vim; cumque illud proprium sit hominis, hoc beluarum; confugiendum est ad posterius, si uti non licet superiore.”

[3] “Nondimanco sempre gli succederono gli inganni (ad votum).” The words “ad votum” are omitted in the Testina addition, 1550.

Alexander never did what he said,
Cesare never said what he did.

Italian Proverb.

[4] “Contrary to fidelity” or “faith,” “contro alla fede,” and “tutto fede,” “altogether faithful,” in the next paragraph. It is noteworthy that these two phrases, “contro alla fede” and “tutto fede,” were omitted in the Testina edition, which was published with the sanction of the papal authorities. It may be that the meaning attached to the word “fede” was “the faith,” i.e. the Catholic creed, and not as rendered here “fidelity” and “faithful.” Observe that the word “religione” was suffered to stand in the text of the Testina, being used to signify indifferently every shade of belief, as witness “the religion,” a phrase inevitably employed to designate the Huguenot heresy. South in his Sermon IX, p. 69, ed. 1843, comments on this passage as follows: “That great patron and Coryphaeus of this tribe, Nicolo Machiavel, laid down this for a master rule in his political scheme: ‘That the show of religion was helpful to the politician, but the reality of it hurtful and pernicious.’”

[5] Ferdinand of Aragon. “When Machiavelli was writing The Prince it would have been clearly impossible to mention Ferdinand’s name here without giving offence.” Burd’s “Il Principe,” p. 308.