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The SUU administration is Mormon. They will stand with Elder Holland and will fire their muskets against the student body if necessary. There will be Utah State Troopers in the auditorium ready to nab anyone displaying rainbow colors and William Schryver will have Russian soldiers at the ready to bomb Cedar City if necessary.

I'd like to know: WWCD? - what would Cassius do?

As I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in the arguments for and against allowing Hollands to speak, and specifically for and against university students demanding that he not speak.

Who feels like committing themselves?

malkie wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:48 pm

Actually, while I greatly sympathise with the SUU students, I have to confess to some ambivalence about suppressing not only speech that one might disagree with, but a speech made by someone whose previous remarks one disagrees with. Is this really the best way to handle the matter, especially on a university campus?

If not me, then who? If not now, then when?

slskipper wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:36 am

malkie wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:48 pm

Actually, while I greatly sympathise with the SUU students, I have to confess to some ambivalence about suppressing not only speech that one might disagree with, but a speech made by someone whose previous remarks one disagrees with. Is this really the best way to handle the matter, especially on a university campus?

If not me, then who? If not now, then when?

Could you please be a bit more explicit - are you talking about the right to protest, or about the right to prohibit speech you do not like? Where do you stand on preventing Holland from speaking at commencement?

I'm not in favour of disallowing protests, and if I were in a position to be expected to attend the commencement, and Holland were to be giving the address, I would not go.

My ambivalence is strictly about whether it is appropriate to have Holland removed from the program because students vehemently disagree with what he has said in the past (which I consider beyond shameful and nasty).

Although my situation was somewhat different, I understand to some extent how the students feel. In the past I was coerced into attending church services on threat of having my academic achievements withheld.

The right to protest is inviolable. As for the right to prohibit speech I don't like, there are lines which must not be crossed. With Holland and the rest of the Q-15, they have reached the stage in society where they cannot be held accountable, and the only way to break their stranglehold is to disrupt. There is never a "good" time to speak out against abuses of power when those in power get to decide what are the "good" times, so the powerless must be inappropriate. That time is now. in my opinion.

Yeah, let him speak, I just wouldn't attend. And I would publish why I debate what he concludes if I see it as being problematic. And I would be perfectly fine criticizing him, even if my criticism is true.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:49 pm

Yeah, let him speak, I just wouldn't attend. And I would publish why I debate what he concludes if I see it as being problematic. And I would be perfectly fine criticizing him, even if my criticism is true.

I recall being horrified when BYU had Dick Cheney speak and gave him an honorary doctorate. It was 2007. The post-9/11 world has been one cluster-eff after another. The invasion of Iraq really threw me for a loop. To have BYU celebrate Cheney in this way was surreal to me. I realized there were few grownups and few people of moral courage out there. The leadership of the LDS Church seemed so small.

The truth is that so much is wrong with our times that Holland’s address is almost a complete yawn. Of course it will provoke a big hullabaloo, but such are the times we are living in. Old institutions are losing their credibility, partly through self-inflicted wounds, and priorities are different.

I'm not sure free speech is the issue at hand here. It would be one thing if Holland were invited to talk to the SUU Mormon Club and there were protests, but that is not the case. Rather, Elder Holland has been invited to speak at commencement, something that is usually attended by near all graduating students. My view on commencement ceremonies is that the speaker is there to inspire, uplift, and encourage all to be better. The protest is about the fact that many won't feel inspired or uplifted by Holland due to his past remarks.

It seems to me it would be the same situation if Vladimir Putin were invited to speak. There would be a free speech issue if there were protests against him speaking at the official political club. But I think most would agree that Vladimir Putin would not be inspiring or uplifting to most in the student body.

The protest is about saying that Holland won't be an inspiring or uplifting speaker at commencement, not that he should never speak anywhere on SUU campus.

I say let him show up, and let the attendees boo the hell of him. That would be way more fun than a simple cancel.

malkie wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:27 am

I'd like to know: WWCD? - what would Cassius do?