Casting a wider net on faith and blessings

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Casting a wider net on faith and blessings

Post by malkie »

It occurs to me that I have been taking a narrow view of the question of members needing to have the faith to be or not to be healed.

In the church, when we talk about giving blessings it is common for people to think about blessings for the healing of the sick. But there are other places where blessings of various sorts are performed. For blessings that may not be effective, or that are hedged, why stop at healing blessings? Should not other blessings also be subject to disclaimers? Terms and conditions may apply?

If the god of Mormonism has free will, what if he expresses his will in these other blessings as he apparently does with regard to healing blessings, by not doing anything he doesn't really want to do?

Can anyone really know ahead of time if they have enough faith for ... anything at all?

Gift of the Holy Ghost
When the holder of the holy priesthood confirms you a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and says to you: “Receive the Holy Ghost”, should he say, at least to himself: "I hope you have enough faith in case you do not receive him. You need to be aware that the Holy Ghost, being a god, may choose not to come into you, and in spite of the stated priesthood authority, he cannot be made to do what he does not want to do. Sorry. His body spirit - his choice.

"As a result, he may or may not: bring comfort, peace, and direction to your life; help you in any righteous endeavor in which you are involved, including in school and among your friends; testify of our Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ; foster any other good thing."

Sacrament prayer
When the sacrament is blessed and passed to the congregation, perhaps people should be advised that, in spite of the best efforts of the holders of the priesthood who administer the sacrament, there is no guarantee that god will actually bless and sanctify the bread. Even if you are willing to take upon you the name of his Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given you, it is possible that you will not ever have his Spirit to be with you.

Comfort blessings
Should blessees be made aware that the blessing they are about to receive may leave them completely unaffected, or perhaps even more anxious and upset than they were before? Should they be asked if they have faith to not be helped and comforted? If god wants to comfort them, he will do so, but not otherwise.

They should keep in mind the beatitude that was missing from the record of the Sermon on the Mount: Blessed is the pessimist, for s/he expects little, and so is seldom disappointed.

Patriarchal blessings
Need I say more?
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5015
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings

Post by Philo Sofee »

Dang...... you may very well be onto something here...
User avatar
JohnW
Valiant A
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:11 pm

Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings

Post by JohnW »

malkie wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:44 pm
They should keep in mind the beatitude that was missing from the record of the Sermon on the Mount: Blessed is the pessimist, for s/he expects little, and so is seldom disappointed.
I just have to say that I love this. It is borderline blasphemy, but boy is it funny.
drumdude
God
Posts: 5213
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings

Post by drumdude »

Baby blessings. Everyone in the circle around you failed, because here you are on the apostate forum.
User avatar
JohnW
Valiant A
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:11 pm

Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings

Post by JohnW »

Overall, Malkie, you are not completely wrong. I think it is just wrong enough for humorous effect.

Whenever we receive a blessing of any sort, we really don't know the outcome. I think the only thing you have wrong is that God is always waiting and willing to bless us in the big things, like the salvation-type things. But those are so nebulous as to not help the unbeliever much, especially because the timeline is so long on most of those as to put it after death. In the small things (yes, it is a nebulous term), there is no real guarantee on any outcome. God is not in the business of giving us what we want, he is in the business of making us into what he wants. Sometimes that means he can give us what we ask for. Sometimes not.
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5015
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings

Post by Philo Sofee »

JohnW wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:08 am
malkie wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:44 pm
They should keep in mind the beatitude that was missing from the record of the Sermon on the Mount: Blessed is the pessimist, for s/he expects little, and so is seldom disappointed.
I just have to say that I love this. It is borderline blasphemy, but boy is it funny.
I'm with ya!
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings

Post by malkie »

JohnW wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:23 am
Overall, Malkie, you are not completely wrong. I think it is just wrong enough for humorous effect.

Whenever we receive a blessing of any sort, we really don't know the outcome. I think the only thing you have wrong is that God is always waiting and willing to bless us in the big things, like the salvation-type things. But those are so nebulous as to not help the unbeliever much, especially because the timeline is so long on most of those as to put it after death. In the small things (yes, it is a nebulous term), there is no real guarantee on any outcome. God is not in the business of giving us what we want, he is in the business of making us into what he wants. Sometimes that means he can give us what we ask for. Sometimes not.
And as you know, John, that is pretty much an accurate description of the god who does not exist, or who, if we accept that he does exist, and created us in some way, is completely disengaged from his creation.

Or - another one of many possibilities - it's all a big game to see how far us little ants will go to try to please an unpleasable god, based on those nebulous promises that can be fulfilled only after death. Except that they needn't exist either, because it's a world that we humans have no access to.

At the very least, the god we are both describing here is neither verifiably good (whatever that may mean), nor faithful, nor true, nor verifiably benevolent in any way in his attitudes towards us.

Even when god apparently promises that he is bound to do what we need, it's pretty clear that this promise is not true.
D&C 82:10 wrote:I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.
To me, this idea of the benevolent god of Mormonism is one of these things that cannot be proven true, but can be proven false, and clearly has been. Unless, of course, the promise is solely about unverifiable events.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
User avatar
sock puppet
High Priest
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:29 pm

Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings

Post by sock puppet »

JohnW wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:23 am
Overall, Malkie, you are not completely wrong. I think it is just wrong enough for humorous effect.

Whenever we receive a blessing of any sort, we really don't know the outcome. I think the only thing you have wrong is that God is always waiting and willing to bless us in the big things, like the salvation-type things. But those are so nebulous as to not help the unbeliever much, especially because the timeline is so long on most of those as to put it after death. In the small things (yes, it is a nebulous term), there is no real guarantee on any outcome. God is not in the business of giving us what we want, he is in the business of making us into what he wants. Sometimes that means he can give us what we ask for. Sometimes not.
Covenants suggest a transaction with god. Promise god to do/not to do certain things, in exchange for which god will bless you. It's certainly has a Trumpian flavor to it. However, it sounds like god can't really be limited by the supposed promises from his end. His free will being all that matters, and so no matter having covenanted and made promises to god, he can be willy nilly in his responses (if there are any at all).
"I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal." Groucho Marx
"The truth has no defense against a fool determined to believe a lie." Mark Twain
The best lack all conviction, while the worst//Are full of passionate intensity." Yeats
Fence Sitter
High Priest
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:02 am

Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings

Post by Fence Sitter »

If blessings had anything other than a placebo effect, it would be easy to measure.

Multiple times a day in Mormon temples throughout the world, a paper roll filled with names is laid on an alter around which temple patrons kneel and offer a special blessing on those people's names contained on the rolls. A simple study could be constructed in which four similar groups of sick people were studied to see the actual impact of those prayers/blessings.

Group one would be people whose names were actually on the rolls, and they know it.
Group two would be people whose names were not on the rolls but are told that they are.
Group three would be people whose names are on the rolls but are not told.
Group four is a control group who are not on the rolls and not advised the rolls exist.

My guess is that groups one and two show no distinguishable difference, and groups three and four result are the same.

In other words the actual blessing has no effect at all.

By the way, I have suggested this study before to faithful members and the usual response is that I do not understand how these blessings work.
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Casting a wider net on faith and blessings

Post by malkie »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:57 pm
If blessings had anything other than a placebo effect, it would be easy to measure.

Multiple times a day in Mormon temples throughout the world, a paper roll filled with names is laid on an alter around which temple patrons kneel and offer a special blessing on those people's names contained on the rolls. A simple study could be constructed in which four similar groups of sick people were studied to see the actual impact of those prayers/blessings.

Group one would be people whose names were actually on the rolls, and they know it.
Group two would be people whose names were not on the rolls but are told that they are.
Group three would be people whose names are on the rolls but are not told.
Group four is a control group who are not on the rolls and not advised the rolls exist.

My guess is that groups one and two show no distinguishable difference, and groups three and four result are the same.

In other words the actual blessing has no effect at all.

By the way, I have suggested this study before to faithful members and the usual response is that I do not understand how these blessings work.
A response I've read to the lack of evidence from attempts to test blessings is that god will not participate, but will withhold his blessings from all subjects, so as not to provide evidence of his involvement. Otherwise such a "proof" would negate the need for faith.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
Post Reply