Backyard Professor Hosts Jonathan Neville - Heartland Geography of the Book of Mormon

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Philo Sofee
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Re: Backyard Professor Hosts Jonathan Neville - Heartland Geography of the Book of Mormon

Post by Philo Sofee »

Well we can't all be right about everything... but that is what makes discussing all ideas so important and fun.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Backyard Professor Hosts Jonathan Neville - Heartland Geography of the Book of Mormon

Post by Kishkumen »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:01 am
Thanks for all who came and said hi and even those who could stay. Paul Osborne, I gave you some good plugs, and yes, I admit, it got the better of me a wee bit, but I slapped Mike Parker (Richard Nygun [however the pseudoname is spelled] asked if Jonathan could ever sit down and be friends with Mike Parker) Steve Smoot and Dan Peterson and the Mesoamerican cult group. I told them if that question was to me I would expect them to grow in maturity and quit trying to be snarky like Dan Peterson and show some scholarship instead of name calling, and then Neville answered in a much nicer vein. In all it was a good session, lots of fun, lots of interesting challenges from the chat, we will do more and have more Q & A with Neville on another session soon. He is very open and willing to discuss stuff. I also openly invited any Mesoamerican scholars to present their views which I will legitimately give them their voices as well as I have Neville.
It's discussion, not argument, and I am enjoying having it this way, even though I disagree with who I hosted, it's fair to give him his say so... it will be so with Mesoamericanists as well.
Sorry I could not stay the whole time. It was good to see Paul, RFM, and Dan Vogel there, as well as the many others in chat. I was impressed by what a nice guy Jonathan Neville is. If he was gracious in the face of the disrespectful treatment he gets from the Mopologists, that is a credit to his decency.

That said, I find the tendency to harbor and even promote racist ideas to be a troubling feature of the so-called "Heartland" movement, at least among some of those who fit in that category. I hope that Neville is on his guard against those bad ideas and does a better job of batting them down in the future. To the extent that the Mopologists are motivated to fight against racist views, I am in agreement with them. To the extent that they are most interested in pushing their own pet geographical theories by attacking those of others in unpleasant ways, I take exception to their attitudes and behaviors. It is not promoting a particular geography that is bad; it is behaving poorly toward others who have different ideas that is bad.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Kishkumen
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Re: Backyard Professor Hosts Jonathan Neville - Heartland Geography of the Book of Mormon

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Shulem wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:00 am
Thanks for that. I enjoyed the show.

Vogel is mistaken in his constant assertion that distance wasn't a concern to Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon storytelling in relation to geography with New York Cumorah being half a world away from South America. Distance, time, and measurement was keenly on Joseph's mind as he unpacked his stories in his fake novel. Delmarva was the template he used to piece stories together in a conglomerate of the mainland and northward into the Great Lakes region. I'm afraid Vogel doesn't understand how weak his theory is. I don't give a damn what the Pratts said. I don't care what Joseph Smith said after the fact! The Book of Mormon speaks for itself, and to hell what Joseph Smith said after that! Smith said very little about geography and most of that came much later when discussions were brought up about ancient ruins down south. Other than that, Smith didn't want to discuss the geography of the Book of Mormon and I can understand his reasons!

Vogel is very good on historical stuff but when it comes to the geography, he really sucks. Brain fart!

Sorry, but that's my opinion.
It seemed to me that Vogel brought some pretty important hard evidence to the table in favor of a hemispheric model. And it could be the case that Joseph was not really that good at logistical considerations as he imagined this ancient American epic. Still, I find your Delmarva model interesting and glad you have developed it.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Backyard Professor Hosts Jonathan Neville - Heartland Geography of the Book of Mormon

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

I thought Neville’s claim of Zarahemla being in Mississippi was interesting, in that I never heard of that before. Apparently Mississippi had an advanced enough polity where coppersmiths were a thing:

http://peachstatearchaeologicalsociety. ... per-plates
Mississippian copper plates, or plaques, are plain and repoussed plates of beaten copper crafted by peoples of the various regional expressions of the Mississippian culture between 800 to 1600 CE. They have been found as artifacts in archaeological sites in the American Midwest and Southeast. The plates, found as far afield as Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Wisconsin, were instrumental in the development of the archaeological concept known as the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex. Some of the more notable examples are representations of raptorial birds and avian-themed dancing warriors.
^ lots of pictures for the visually inclined

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Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Shulem
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Re: Backyard Professor Hosts Jonathan Neville - Heartland Geography of the Book of Mormon

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:37 pm
It seemed to me that Vogel brought some pretty important hard evidence to the table in favor of a hemispheric model. And it could be the case that Joseph was not really that good at logistical considerations as he imagined this ancient American epic. Still, I find your Delmarva model interesting and glad you have developed it.

  • Vogel and I are in agreement that the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction that is inspired by other known ideas, sources, and stories in which Joseph Smith was familiar.
  • Vogel and I are in agreement that Joseph Smith did not always tell the truth in his dealings with his fellow man including his own wife.
Vs.
  • Vogel and I are not in agreement to how widespread and consistent Joseph Smith's lying was in all aspects of his life. That is open to interpretation.
  • Vogel and I are not in agreement in how saying nothing about South America in the original publication of the 1830 Book of Mormon introduction is crucial in pointing how Smith did not want to discuss geography by any means *when* introducing his book to the publisher.
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Shulem
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Re: Backyard Professor Hosts Jonathan Neville - Heartland Geography of the Book of Mormon

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:23 pm
Well we can't all be right about everything... but that is what makes discussing all ideas so important and fun.

And it is fun!

You know as well as I do that Smith was into covering things up and adapting to whatever means that helped move his cause. If the Pratts were happy about South America and Panama being the narrow neck, then more power to them. But, Smith never, ever, gave a so-called inspired discourse on the geography or uttered anything authoritative about Panama being the very neck in the Book of Mormon. Smith didn't dare do that because he knew that wasn't what he originally visualized when producing his story in America. He remained ever silent on geography. He could have given many a sermon on it. He could have included a revelation in the D&C about it. But that was not the case. He remained tight-lipped and took his secret to the grave.

You also know that Smith was very outspoken about a great many things. So why not the geography? That is something that has gone over Dan Vogel's head completely! So what if the Pratts liked South America and Joseph Smith raised his beer mug with a "hell yeah, baby"!

BFD. Smith was a liar from the get-go and everything he ever said need not be considered his personal truth. Do you understand that, Vogel? Don't let Smith's lies continue to dupe you to the very end. We have all been victims of the lies and some of those lies continue to work in our minds even today! It's amazing!
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Re: Backyard Professor Hosts Jonathan Neville - Heartland Geography of the Book of Mormon

Post by Moksha »

Even Shulem coughing and sputtering on Mike Parker would be better than not having Shulem participate at all. Delmarva needs its champion. The Malay contender should be there as well.
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Shulem
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Re: Backyard Professor Hosts Jonathan Neville - Heartland Geography of the Book of Mormon

Post by Shulem »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:49 pm
I thought Neville’s claim of Zarahemla being in Mississippi was interesting, in that I never heard of that before.

The Book of Mormon does not support the idea of Sea West being a fresh body of river water that can be rightly called a "sea." This is one of the links in the Heartland theory that can be easily broken and left hanging off a cliff.

If I need to, I will crucify it. But as you probably know, I've not spent much energy or time attacking the heartland theory.
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Zosimus
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Re: Backyard Professor Hosts Jonathan Neville - Heartland Geography of the Book of Mormon

Post by Zosimus »

Shulem wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:27 pm
Smith didn't dare do that because he knew that wasn't what he originally visualized when producing his story in America. He remained ever silent on geography. He could have given many a sermon on it. He could have included a revelation in the D&C about it. But that was not the case. He remained tight-lipped and took his secret to the grave.
But why? If Delmarva was the location of Smith's promised land, then why be tight-lipped about it?

The only reasons I can see for Smith keeping the map he used a secret would be because (1) he didn't want people to know where the Promised Land really was, or (2) the geography of the text was totally unrelated to the claims Smith was making.

#2 seems far more likely because (1) the geography of the Book of Mormon does not resemble any location in North or South America and (2) I can find no logical reason why Smith would want to hide that New England was the promised land.
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Re: Backyard Professor Hosts Jonathan Neville - Heartland Geography of the Book of Mormon

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:59 pm
But why? If Delmarva was the location of Smith's promised land, then why be tight-lipped about it?

The only reasons I can see for Smith keeping the map he used a secret would be because (1) he didn't want people to know where the Promised Land really was, or (2) the geography of the text was totally unrelated to the claims Smith was making.

#2 seems far more likely because (1) the geography of the Book of Mormon does not resemble any location in North or South America and (2) I can find no logical reason why Smith would want to hide that New England was the promised land.

Z,

I've pretty much answered the reason why Smith remained tight-lipped. He did not want his followers or people of interest making enquiry or an expedition to Delmarva in search of Bountiful and the ruins of Jesus's ancient temple. Smith wanted his Book of Mormon to ever remain ancient and beyond reach of physical proofs needed to show it was a genuine and historical account which he KNEW was not. There would be no expedition to prove a work of fiction and Smith saw to that by keeping his mouth shut on this one thing and one thing only. On everything else, Smith was a blabber mouth and had answers to everything and anything. Generally speaking, Smith was a know-it-all except for when it came to discussion about where Bountiful was and or where Jesus set his foot in America.

I have three threads loaded with information that answers your question:
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