I'm Embarrassed For The Majority of Mormons That Supported Trump

[MsJack]

And I am embarrassed that evangelicals embraced him.

I can kind of understand the Wayne Grudem types who back in 2016 were like, "Yes, he's terrible, but he's the only way to get 'conservative' legislation passed, so I have to vote for him."

But most warmly embraced him, and continue to do so even post-insurrection and after all kinds of other wickedness.

I believe American evangelicalism will never recover from its support of Trump. We will be seen as unprincipled hypocrites for many generations to come.

As will Mormons, whose leaders have absolutely been shown to possess zero prophetic insight or virtus. The biblical prophets stood up boldly to King Ahab, and even king David when he acted wickedly.

These are not those prophets.

[Fence Sitter]

Trump helps me understand how Germans allowed Hitler to get in power.

[malkie]

And I am embarrassed that evangelicals embraced him.

I can kind of understand the Wayne Grudem types who back in 2016 were like, "Yes, he's terrible, but he's the only way to get 'conservative' legislation passed, so I have to vote for him."

But most warmly embraced him, and continue to do so even post-insurrection and after all kinds of other wickedness.

I believe American evangelicalism will never recover from its support of Trump. We will be seen as unprincipled hypocrites for many generations to come.

As will Mormons, whose leaders have absolutely been shown to possess zero prophetic insight or virtus. The biblical prophets stood up boldly to King Ahab, and even king David when he acted wickedly.

These are not those prophets.

As a Canadian, I always found the rightwards leaning of the US evangelicals and Mormons a bit disturbing. It's probably my own biases showing here (born and raised on "red" Clydeside), but the religious right's apparent lack of empathy for the poor and underprivileged always bothered me.

When Trump appeared on the political scene, it didn't surprise me that he had switched from (apparently) D to R - seemed like a better fit to me. I was certain that the Christians would reject him completely, for his obvious nastiness and character flaws - he's just not the kind of person I could imagine Christians looking up to, or considering as a role model for their children.

As a result I was horrified by the wholesale embrace that Trump received from US Christians - leaders as well as "ordinary" folks. And almost 10 years later I still struggle to understand it.

What I think I'm seeing is perhaps that Christianity is actually a 2nd-place identifier for some/many US Christians, and trails far behind right-wing politics - far right, in a significant number of cases.

And I agree with your statement about how good, or bad, this looks for American evangelicalism, and American Christianity in general. It shows, to me, at least, a disregard for principle, and an undue emphasis on short-term over long-term goals, and on ends over means.

[Jason Bourne]

And I am embarrassed that evangelicals embraced him.

I can kind of understand the Wayne Grudem types who back in 2016 were like, "Yes, he's terrible, but he's the only way to get 'conservative' legislation passed, so I have to vote for him."

But most warmly embraced him, and continue to do so even post-insurrection and after all kinds of other wickedness.

I believe American evangelicalism will never recover from its support of Trump. We will be seen as unprincipled hypocrites for many generations to come.

As will Mormons, whose leaders have absolutely been shown to possess zero prophetic insight or virtus. The biblical prophets stood up boldly to King Ahab, and even king David when he acted wickedly.

These are not those prophets.

Had Trump been a Democrat evangelicals and Mormons alike would have rejected him outright. Just like they did Clinton and much because they then said character matters. Look at the piece of crap named Franklin Graham. He outright rejected Clinton and based it on morals. Yet he embraced Trump and still does and recently has been defending him. Hypocrites. All of them. I can only conclude that most evangelicals and a lot of Mormons think their politics are more important than what their religion teaches them. ANd for me this is another great reason to reject conservative religion.

[Jason Bourne]

And I am embarrassed that evangelicals embraced him.

I can kind of understand the Wayne Grudem types who back in 2016 were like, "Yes, he's terrible, but he's the only way to get 'conservative' legislation passed, so I have to vote for him."

But most warmly embraced him, and continue to do so even post-insurrection and after all kinds of other wickedness.

I believe American evangelicalism will never recover from its support of Trump. We will be seen as unprincipled hypocrites for many generations to come.

As will Mormons, whose leaders have absolutely been shown to possess zero prophetic insight or virtus. The biblical prophets stood up boldly to King Ahab, and even king David when he acted wickedly.

These are not those prophets.

And by he way I used to give the Samaritan's Purse, Graham's charity. But he so disgusts me I can no longer do so.

[Res Ipsa]

And I am embarrassed that evangelicals embraced him.

I can kind of understand the Wayne Grudem types who back in 2016 were like, "Yes, he's terrible, but he's the only way to get 'conservative' legislation passed, so I have to vote for him."

But most warmly embraced him, and continue to do so even post-insurrection and after all kinds of other wickedness.

I believe American evangelicalism will never recover from its support of Trump. We will be seen as unprincipled hypocrites for many generations to come.

As will Mormons, whose leaders have absolutely been shown to possess zero prophetic insight or virtus. The biblical prophets stood up boldly to King Ahab, and even king David when he acted wickedly.

These are not those prophets.

Politically, I'm afraid you're right. But that may not be a bad thing.

[huckelberry]

And I am embarrassed that evangelicals embraced him.

I can kind of understand the Wayne Grudem types who back in 2016 were like, "Yes, he's terrible, but he's the only way to get 'conservative' legislation passed, so I have to vote for him."

But most warmly embraced him, and continue to do so even post-insurrection and after all kinds of other wickedness.

I believe American evangelicalism will never recover from its support of Trump. We will be seen as unprincipled hypocrites for many generations to come.

As will Mormons, whose leaders have absolutely been shown to possess zero prophetic insight or virtus. The biblical prophets stood up boldly to King Ahab, and even king David when he acted wickedly.

These are not those prophets.

Ms Jack , glad to hear your comments on this subject.

I have heard and I think considered the point you open with, people believe Trump was the only way to get conservative policies passed. There is a logic there but I cannot help but wonder how could it be that this is the only way? Are the policies hoped for so unpopular that they have to be wrapped up in something else? Perhaps truly, I do not know what(perhaps extremes?)a Mr. Grudem hopes for.

Perhaps it is hoped that Trump has the power and ability to lead people so they will follow conservative policies they otherwise would not support. He demonstrates some ability to do that.

The view I am so far unable to unsee is that Trump projects an image of manly authority and will to power which conservative religious followers seek and have been encouraged to accept. It appears so strong that it can look like a sexual lust of sorts.Perhaps it is more accurate to see that people may find submitting and following a willful leader a sort of spiritual experience. People can feel a part of something that has power.

I find myself with the impression that religious leaders speaking out against Trump focus on what to me appear secondary. They observe that he uses vulgar language and may have been sexually unfaithful. Why not say he lies like the devil and seeks to seize power for himself by false means?

I have noticed with troubled confusion the views of Eric Metaxes. He is supposed to be smart, it is said, he has published books including a biography of Bonhoffer. Somehow he believes he is following Bonhoffer example by giving Trump unreserved support. I so far have been unable to see anything but stark irony in that.

I am going to admit that the support of Trump has been a bigger blow to my faith that anything I can remember for many years. Perhaps that unquestioning obsequiousness to men wielding excessive power is shining a spotlight on an important weakness.

[huckelberry]

I have heard and I think considered the point you open with, people believe Trump was the only way to get conservative policies passed. There is a logic there but I cannot help but wonder how could it be that this is the only way? Are the policies hoped for so unpopular that they have to be wrapped up in something else? Perhaps truly, I do not know what(perhaps extremes?)a Mr. Grudem hopes for.

Perhaps it is hoped that Trump has the power and ability to lead people so they will follow conservative policies they otherwise would not support. He demonstrates some ability to do that.

The view I am so far unable to unsee is that Trump projects an image of manly authority and will to power which conservative religious followers seek and have been encouraged to accept. It appears so strong that it can look like a sexual lust of sorts.Perhaps it is more accurate to see that people may find submitting and following a willful leader a sort of spiritual experience. People can feel a part of something that has power.

I find myself with the impression that religious leaders speaking out against Trump focus on what to me appear secondary. They observe that he uses vulgar language and may have been sexually unfaithful. Why not say he lies like the devil and seeks to seize power for himself by false means?

I have noticed with troubled confusion the views of Eric Metaxes. He is supposed to be smart, it is said, he has published books including a biography of Bonhoffer. Somehow he believes he is following Bonhoffer example by giving Trump unreserved support. I so far have been unable to see anything but stark irony in that.

I am going to admit that the support of Trump has been a bigger blow to my faith that anything I can remember for many years. Perhaps that unquestioning obsequiousness to men wielding excessive power is shining a spotlight on an important weakness.

Yea, Huck, the problem is trickier. People all and always have needed leader and teachers and guides with some authority. These are necessary to help put together the knowledge we use to survive and thrive. Organization of effort and materials has always required some authority. Now you may believe that authorities who respect others and limit their use of power and wealth, who value honesty and the lives of the people they have influence over are much better for the community. People should remind leaders of these duties. But the henchmen and followers of a dictator hope for privileged benefits and power.

I suppose this is repeating some obvious points. but religion needs to support an individual self respect.

[Physics Guy]

Supporting people‘s self-respect can easily shade into supporting people‘s self-importance. If you‘ve sat through many Bible studies, I think you‘ll recognize that some guys seem to really need to hold forth for a while about something. Giving people a chance to be listened to can be a wonderful thing, but sometimes it seems as though the religion is enabling a pompous loudmouth.

If you crave respect, I have a feeling that evangelical Christianity can offer a sort of religious version of a cheap drunk. Upholding a literal interpretation of the Bible as the only authority makes it easier to read a few verses and form a fixed opinion; exalting faith over works makes it easier to feel that those easily formed opinions are impressive achievements that deserve recognition. Many verses in that Bible warn against that self-righteousness, but you can avoid those verses and dwell on triumphant ones. The result is that a little bit of mastering the right lingo and the approved set of opinions can get you a lot more respectful attention from your peers than you could gain with the same amount of effort in other endeavors. To get that level of respect as a traditional Roman Catholic, for example, I think you‘d have to endure a pretty severely ascetic lifestyle.

So I think that evangelical Christianity may attract a bit more than its share of people—probably men in particular—who crave respect. And I‘m not sure they‘re all getting healed of the addiction; all too often, I fear, it may be like the fishing trip that is really all about the beer.

And I figure Trump aims his schtick at the same set of marks, probably without even trying because he‘s one of these respect-craving guys. So that‘s my theory about the apparent corruption of American Evangelicalism by Trump. He deals the same drug that goes round at the back of the revival tent.

[huckelberry]

"round the back of the revival tent"
Physics Guy, you have made a memorably accurate picture there I think.

My comment about supporting self respect was too simple. There are plenty scripture and traditional observations indicating one should question and limit self assurance and importance. I imagine those and self respect should work together. You may have highlighted a method to short circuit the difficulties and labor of that cooperation.