Mormonism is a cult

[Gadianton]

Great contribution to a serious topic, Morley.

Did MG read this part from his link:

In historiography, there are no negative connotations to the use of the term cult

If I look at the Britannica definition you quoted in blue, I'm thinking, what does it ultimately mean to have all of these attributes? Does it mean anything that Neapolitan ice cream has three lanes; strawberry, vanilla, and chocolate? How does that make it fundamentally different from any other kind of ice cream? The narrow definition is comprised of a collection of things that sound kind of bad, but what does that collection tell us as a whole?

Maybe it's this:

In more recent decades, groups designated cults have been those at tension with the rest of society

So the collection of attributes in blue as a whole, are the attributes generally found in groups at tension with the rest of society? Does that sound right? Well, a cult isn't exactly the same as a street gang or a mafia, but there are some common attributes.

Anyway, I think I'm going inward here, what is on the mind of the cultist, such that cults find themselves in tension with society?

I think 1-4 on your list are really strong hits. The "canny attempt at isolation" I've said is very important. I think for a cult to be a true cult, the cultists can't merely be simplistic prisoners of the cult such that when the compound is raided, they're freed and go on to do something else, but they are programmed such that, like the Reptilians, they can blend into polite society and mimic the day-to-day lives perfectly appear to have deep relationships with others, but it's all a ruse that they step away from without a hitch on feeding day. Another example would a spy in deep cover. I saw a movie a while back about an Israeli spy in deep cover for decades, who had marriages, 23 concubines, this great social standing -- as beneficial as that might be to one's home country, it takes a special kind of f'd up psychology to pull that off. How do you fake deep relationships with people for decades and never flinch in your duty to use them for the goals of your handler?

So in my OP, my example was a businessman from a podcast who was a Mormon through-in-through. I've know a few Mormon businessmen like this who are Utah-white, but they are very effective, very capable, charismatic, and cunning. From a non-Utah job long ago, A Mormon guy came in to restructure the company. He did some downright weird stuff. He cracked a joke during a company meeting once about the urim and thummim from the Old Testament, nobody reacted because they have no idea what he's talking about. And that's because he has no idea that Mormons have a unique doctrine of them as translation devices.

The tension of course results from the weirdness that's part of the ploy to take power, but it's deeply embedded, and so I guess my continued example here, is that even these very successful, world-travelling Mormon businessmen have the inability to absorb their surrounding culture when away from the Church. They are fundamentally locked and view the world through the lens of their upbringing and it's near impossible to change that.

Point 5 maybe more later but I'm low on the belief that transcendence is part of the Mormon cultist. Point 6 could go with 1-4 but I'm hesitating for some reason. Point 7 I think goes with 1-4 as deeply rooted identity, the Mormon obsession with sexual purity, especially when in light of Mormon history, is stunning.

[Morley]

I agree with your assessment of #5, regarding the relative lack of an LDS transcendental experience. Obviously, I had to scramble a bit to come up with anything I thought might fit the bill. Perhaps the religion has become too respectable for any such kind of experience to occur anymore.

As far as the rest of the list goes, I was troubled by the absence of any mention about how cultic information is controlled. I'm not certain about any other so-called cults, but Mormons seem to have a tacit agreement that they're going to deny and/or warp any history or doctrine they don't feel is especially complimentary--even if they personally know better. Beyond a polite brushoff and a referral to FARMS, you'll never get a Mormon to converse in any depth about priesthood and race, polygamy, treasure hunting, Book of Mormon anachronisms, or, basically, anything Brigham Young said. They'll sigh, exchange glances, and quickly change the subject to the question that should have been asked. Either that, or they'll hand you a glass of milk, because, in asking hard questions, you've shown that you're obviously not ready for their stringy meat.

[Kishkumen]

What do YOU mean by transcendent experience? I certainly had that as an LDS person, at least according to my understanding and experience.

[Morley]

Interesting question, Reverend.

I mean a feeling of touching on the divine. I don't think one has to be religious (or even believe in God) to have one. I've had a number of them, in a whole host of situations, but I can't think of any that were generated by an experience in the CoJCoLDS.

[honorentheos]

Interesting question, Reverend.

I mean a feeling of touching on the divine. I don't think one has to be religious (or even believe in God) to have one. I've had a number of them, in a whole host of situations, but I can't think of any that were generated by an experience in the CoJCoLDS.

Back in my believing life my view of Mormonism bordered on gnosticism in that knowledge available through the restored gospel was essential to transcending the material to the restored perfection of exaltation. And that knowledge came through learning and application, discipline and active pursuit of overcoming the natural man to one day be able to feel what God feels and think what God thinks. In those experiences there were many, many days in the wilderness of mundane life. But there were occasions where the boundary between self and other dropped away, where for moments the feeling I was catching a glimpse of what that goal really meant was consuming.

I think it is possible to pursue transcendent experiences through Mormon-based worship and lifestyle choices. I don't think the church experience really fosters them, though.

[Gadianton]

Interesting question, Reverend.

I mean a feeling of touching on the divine. I don't think one has to be religious (or even believe in God) to have one. I've had a number of them, in a whole host of situations, but I can't think of any that were generated by an experience in the CoJCoLDS.

For a religion so hell-bent on the bolt-of-lightning testimony, it does very little to cultivate such experiences. I knew far more people frustrated over never experiencing the marvelous conversion than those who claimed to have experienced it.

Let's go down the list. Drugs? Nope. Mormonism doesn't have DMT or anything like it to aid in a spirit walk. Music? There was some anti-Mormon film I glanced at a long time ago showing primary children singing "Popcorn popping on the apricot tree" doing the hand motions, and it was meant to allude to brainwashing. I had to laugh because compared to charismatic EV services, nothing in Mormonism even comes close. Speaking in tongues? Slain in the spirit? Laughing in the spirit? Mormonism is utterly tame. Ritual? The temple on paper except it lacks drama, especially the live session. Ritual in Mormonism has all the flair of a corporate earnings call. Sex? triple bzzt. So it really comes down to individual members tying themselves in knots to bring on the spiritual experience; fasting excessively, praying all night long, and stuff like that.

And I think from an evolutionary perspective, the Mormon method is much more effective in achieving long-term cult status. If you have to rely on DMT and music etc., then when that gets turned off, then what? "The fence of the mind" is where it's at.

[Kishkumen]

I don’t know that Mormonism needs to have special tools for evoking transcendent experiences. They have the usual tools that most Christians have: prayer, fasting, group worship including singing. These are sufficient to have an experience, and that was sufficient for me to have such experiences.

[Moksha]

How does the growing presence of DezNat within LDS apologetics affect this cult determination?

I don’t know that Mormonism needs to have special tools for evoking transcendent experiences.

Usage of fry sauce concentrate?

[Gadianton]

I don’t know that Mormonism needs to have special tools for evoking transcendent experiences. They have the usual tools that most Christians have: prayer, fasting, group worship including singing. These are sufficient to have an experience, and that was sufficient for me to have such experiences.

As I acknowledged:

So it really comes down to individual members tying themselves in knots to bring on the spiritual experience; fasting excessively, praying all night long, and stuff like that.

It's a numbers game. It might be sufficient, but more people would have such experiences if heavier psychological tools to invoke experiences were utilized. I never had an experience such that I was convinced it came from outside of myself. I know very few people who did claim such a thing outside of typical F&T rote. Even my mom, the most TBM person who ever walked the earth, told me she'd never felt the manifestation of the spirit that imprints certainty upon the individual.

But as I'm contemplating cults, I don't think it's material or even advantageous to the cult to manipulate its followers like this, except for in the short term. Look at MG 2.0. He's a literal antenna for SLC's broadcasts and he's not very spiritual. The experiences obviously didn't work for you long term. My best story about this one is from my mission. We were doing "less active" work. We had this long conversation with a woman whose family was now inactive, but she still believed and sorta wanted to come back. Super elegant lady, beautiful family; wealthy. They were Greek and so Greek Orthodox prior, and the missionaries knocked on their door. The father invited them in and gave them a hard time. No-nonsense business guy that she was afraid would come home while we were there. He took the Book of Mormon from the missionaries and prayed about it intensely, for days, apparently. And he was granted the full manifestation. Wouldn't talk about it, but the implication was that it may have involved a literal angel. So powerful, that she still believed in the Church because of his experience that he never fully shared with anybody. So, he cuts ties with family and all their tradition and becomes Mormon and the whole family becomes Mormon. He quickly becomes branch president and then a couple years down the road it's all over. He goes inactive and nobody from the Church is welcome in his home, though no denial of his experience. What happened? Easy, he got into business with a couple fellow branch members, whatever it was fell through and they all blamed each other, and that was that.

[honorentheos]

It's interesting how varied peoples experiences are when it comes to this. I hung on participating in church at least a year after I was intellectually certain Joseph Smith lied about polygamy, the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Abraham because I couldn't dismiss what I felt certain were divine confirmation experiences, or divine direction at times I couldn't explain without using the explanation the church taught. The issues with the first vision story were essentially what forced me to consider Smith may have been a knowing fraud. My leaving the Church was an act of faith that I couldn't attend with integrity any longer so it felt like a choice between choosing to lie to God to appease people. I view those experiences much differently now, of course, but it wasn't some unfulfilled promise in my experience. More that it was channeling natural phenomena.

For example, the first time I genuinely felt certain I had my prayer answered with an overwhelming feeling of divine affirmation was when I made the decision as a senior in high school to enlist as a reservist so I could go to basic before serving a mission rather than doing the more normal traditional year of college or working. The resulting sense of absolute affirmation and almost euphoria was something I hadn't experienced before. I had zero doubts it was the spirit and it was overwhelming. Kind of shocking. I look back on it now and see it as my subconscious at work affirming what was a good choice that my reasoning prefrontal cortex needed convinced of to stop contemplating what ifs. I've managed similar experiences through meditation as a non-believer. Which I also appreciate.

I honestly don't know what I would have done in life if I had never thought back then God answered prayers so definitively. That's kind of wild.