Mormonism is a cult

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
User avatar
Physics Guy
God
Posts: 1557
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:40 am
Location: on the battlefield of life

Re: Mormonism is a cult

Post by Physics Guy »

This is a good point, that whatever cult thinking is or does, it probably serves some psychological or social purpose. Cults are groups—I confess I kind of lost sight of this basic fact. So cults are probably all about group cohesion. Probably they draw their strength from instincts to stay with the tribe.

Humans are complicated animals. I expect that in addition to primary instincts to stick with the herd, we may have instincts for developing ways to influence our own behaviour to make ourselves stick with the herd more consistently. So where a dog might just instinctively follow the scent of its pack, humans might instinctively adopt ways of thinking that tend to keep the little tribe together.

I expect that most everybody works that way, probably much more often than we realise. I've heard that a lot of our motivations are really rationalisations that we develop after the decisions have been made, but I think that our decisions usually are made for sound reasons of some kind, even if not for the ones we tell ourselves. I don't believe that we are creatures of mere random impulse under the fake rationalisation; I think we are more likely to be cunning survival engines under the fake rationalisation.

Rationalisation itself is no doubt one of our cunning survival tactics, helping us to maintain our positions within the clan while getting what we need for ourselves, by tweaking our own instincts enough. It's probably an evolutionary kludge, bending one instinct just enough by tying it to another one with a rationalisation that's just strong enough to keep the whole thing together.

If rationalisation can channel our instincts, emotion can probably do even more. The same surge of dopamine (or whatever it is) that one gets from settling into a safe place around the clan fire may be the active ingredient in religious experiences that don't involve warm fire or hot food, but only thinking and speaking.

If so, fire up the grill. I don't see why we should rely on rationalisation alone to harness our primitive instincts for more intelligent purposes. If other tools can also work to hack our instincts, we should use them.

So maybe the problem with cults isn't just that they're using a wrong kind of thinking, exactly. Maybe it's possible to exploit instincts to control people's behaviour more powerfully than reason can, but this can in principle be done either for good or for ill. Maybe the problem with cults is that the control is not really being used to let people live better than they otherwise could, but just to perpetuate the privilege of an elite inner group.

If that's true, it doesn't have to be a deliberate strategy on the part of the inner group, at least not once the cult has been going for a generation or two. It could just be what the mechanism inherently does, and it perpetuates itself as a kind of behavioural selfish meme.
I was a teenager before it was cool.
User avatar
Morley
God
Posts: 1560
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:17 pm
Location: detail from Alice Neel's 1980 self portrait

Re: Mormonism is a cult

Post by Morley »

Gadianton wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2023 12:33 am
Morley wrote:It remains that way until, one day, his wife asks him, "Why do you do spend so much time doing this, Bertrand?" then "And why did you, here at the end of your life, decide to become a painter?"

Hearing these questions, Dr Russell is, at first, flummoxed. He has given almost no time to contemplating to his own motivations.
It's rare we get your psychological insights, Morley, so really enjoying this. I can't hold a candle to your knowledge here, but allow me to nuance my theory of lying, beginning with your observation.

I made the point that the testimony narrative doesn't seem to fit the actual testimony experience, members are broadly aware of this, but the testimony tradition rolls forth powered by Mormon culture itself, not necessarily the leaders making demands. For now I have to throw out BKPism.

That Dr. Russell's explanations for himself are ad hoc reminds me of the first stimulus that got me here, and this is not ad hoc as of today, this has been on my mind for years. Dennett's Stalinist theory of perceptions. Perception isn't immediacy, it's a staged verdict. Likewise, Dr. Russell's explanation for his fascinations are after the fact, and perhaps had he been asked the question on another day in another mood, his answer would have been entirely different.

I think Dennett's insights are some of the most interesting in phil mind, but I don't know what to do with them. I can't convince myself that pain is a Stalinist trial. However, it struck me long ago that something like spirituality, sans DMT, sans intensive stimuli to evoke emotional responses, such as I believed to be the general case in Mormonism, that spiritual experiences in context with the expectations of testimony bearing could very much be explained by a Stalinist trial of the mind.

That was thought 1.

I can't properly credit thought 2 as It's something I scanned online in a psychology paper one day and then couldn't find it again. The observation being made as I recall it, was that facets of religious culture mirror the social phenomena of a down zipper. In polite society, we pretend we don't see it and expect the same courtesy be afforded to us should we be in the position. Substitute the testimony bearer and receiver here and that's the basic model I have in mind, and you can see where dishonesty is nuanced.

I have to go now, so that isn't much of an explanation but I tend to ramble so maybe it's better to leave it at this for now.
Beautiful response, Gad, especially the 'Stalinist theory of perception' part. I won't have a lot of time until the middle of next week, but I'll try to type something out here before I run.

Whether one believes that the filling in of the memory's blind spots follows a Stalinist or Orwellian theory of perception doesn't make much difference: The results are the same. Dr Russell's response probably wouldn't have differed much, no matter when he'd been asked. As KIsh suggested (when he referred to Susan Clancy), memory is somewhat of a community affair. After a few years of listening to and reading artists talk about their motivations, Bertrand, in order to identify as an artist, is probably going to subconsciously fall in line. (If you compare various painter's artist statements, you'll notice that while the individual melody may vary slightly, the background drone is generally and somnambulistically the same.)

When the other Dr Russell (Russell Nelson) recounts his spiral of death story, he's doing much the same thing. His reconstructed memory is a community project that fits the norms of his particular community, specifically that of Mormon general authorities. No matter the genesis, both Russells will come to believe that the memories are all their own. In the beginning, are they somewhat aware they're lying to themselves? I don't know that it matters.
User avatar
Nimrod
Star B
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:20 pm

Re: Mormonism is a cult

Post by Nimrod »

The following are some criteria and behaviors often used to determine if an organization is a cult:

A charismatic leader: Cults follow a charismatic leader, living or dead, whose teachings are considered of the highest importance. This leader may be considered a genius, or may be considered a religious figure like a messiah or prophet.

LDS: Check. Joseph Smith, Jr. and Russell M. Nelson.

Ideological purity: Members are strongly discouraged from questioning the cult's doctrine and any doubts are met with shame or punishment.

LDS: Check. This past conference it was emphasized that members should not discount what the current leaders say by reason of what prior ones have said. "Doubt your doubts" tumbled out of the mouth of perhaps the most open-minded, tolerant of the FP/Q12.

Conformity and control: Cult leaders often exercise an extreme degree of control over members' lives, including dictating what they can wear and eat and what kinds of relationships they can have. Conformity is also enforced by group members who police one another.

LDS: Check. Garments for underwear, and nothing revealing the shoulders, mid-drifts or much of the legs. White shirts for priesthood holders; "prairie" dresses for women, young and old. No coffee, tea, or alcohol. No sexually active relationships other than inside marriage. The LDS church has cultivated a culture where snitching on each other is encouraged to 'help them repent and be forgiven and secure their salvation.'

Mind-altering practices: Sleep deprivation, chanting, meditation, and drugs are often used to break down individuals' defenses and make them more susceptible to cult ideology.

LDS: Check, for those on a mission. Up by 6:30 a.m., reciting scripture and games related thereto ("scripture chases" and challenges), praying many times a day. Drugs? No.

Isolation and love-bombing: It is common for people in cults to be encouraged to cut contact with outsiders, including close family members. Within the cult, new members are often subjected to love-bombing, a practice where new initiates are showered with love and praise to bring them deeper into the cult and foster a sense of belonging.

LDS: Check, for those on missions contact with others, even close family members, is severely restricted. Getting married in the temple isolates from some family members. New converts are love-bombed by members and missionaries.

Us-vs-them mentality: Cult members are often encouraged to see the cult as superior to life on the outside and to feel that those outside the cult lack understanding or insight.

LDS: Check, in fact this is a hallmark of the Mormonism in which I grew up, a "peculiar people" and proud of it. Mormons claim that they alone have the truth (superiority) and that others don't have 'the full truth' like Mormons do.

Apocalyptic thinking: Preparation for a supposed apocalypse or cataclysmic event is a major characteristic of many cults, especially cult religions.

LDS: Check, the chosen generation saved for the last days before Jesus comes again.

Time and energy: Followers are expected to dedicate huge amounts of time and energy (and often money) to the cult to the exclusion of their own lives, interests, jobs, and families.

LDS: Check, the LDS church yokes active members very heavily as compared to other religions, often loading them so much that they do not have time to think for themselves about what they are hearing from LDS leaders.


I think the LDS church is very cultish, especially its missionary program.
Apologists try to shill an explanation to questioning members as though science and reason really explain and buttress their professed faith. It [sic] does not. By definition, faith is the antithesis of science and reason. Apologetics is a further deception by faith peddlers to keep power and influence.
User avatar
Gadianton
God
Posts: 3842
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:56 pm
Location: Elsewhere

Re: Mormonism is a cult

Post by Gadianton »

physics guy wrote:So maybe the problem with cults isn't just that they're using a wrong kind of thinking, exactly. Maybe it's possible to exploit instincts to control people's behaviour more powerfully than reason can, but this can in principle be done either for good or for ill. Maybe the problem with cults is that the control is not really being used to let people live better than they otherwise could, but just to perpetuate the privilege of an elite inner group.

If that's true, it doesn't have to be a deliberate strategy on the part of the inner group, at least not once the cult has been going for a generation or two. It could just be what the mechanism inherently does, and it perpetuates itself as a kind of behavioural selfish meme.
If individual bees were secular beeists the hive would fall apart. Where I see the bolded going, is that not only is it easier to use tribal tactics against reason, but I wonder if humans with a healthy modern background can exploit the tribal tactics in ways that aren't often found in nature. If an amazon tribe is a cult of sorts, then it's had centuries to find a workable balance. Whereas if you're starting off from scratch in the modern world, perhaps the initial rounds are prone to unstable excesses.

Any real-time strategy game is a good analogy to the tradeoffs (or any post-apocalypse thriller). You can play the team that has high tech weapons, but technology is costly; or the team that cranks out hordes of basic fighters and meat shields. A cult that can scale its devices results in authoritarianism.

Mormonism is highly authoritarian, but it's virtualized, running of the hardware of an otherwise pretty effective liberal economy. If Mormons ever went off in a spaceship, they'd become a dangerous society. But I think in that case, it would go through a few revolutions, as I don't think the current leaders would be able to stay in power as they lack the charisma and vision to lead something like the Fremen.
Last edited by Gadianton on Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Gadianton
God
Posts: 3842
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:56 pm
Location: Elsewhere

Re: Mormonism is a cult

Post by Gadianton »

Nimrod wrote: Check, for those on a mission
The MTC and missionary life is a good example of Mormonism is capable of if it can isolate it's members.
msnobody
First Presidency
Posts: 834
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:35 pm

Re: Mormonism is a cult

Post by msnobody »

Sometimes it’s hard not to use the “C” word. Missionaries cannot meet at my home because I’m 13 miles away and they can only put 40 miles on the car per day. I suppose the brethren in SLC really don’t need my tithing dollars (I know they don’t). So, the investigator has to go to the missionaries, which I’m willing to do. Mormonism!!!
The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession... The LORD set his love on you and chose you... The LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery. Deut. 7
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 5810
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Re: Mormonism is a cult

Post by Moksha »

Gadianton wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:11 am
If individual bees were secular beeists the hive would fall apart.
If they were allowed to think for themselves where would we get our honey? Obey the Drones!!!
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
User avatar
Gadianton
God
Posts: 3842
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:56 pm
Location: Elsewhere

Re: Mormonism is a cult

Post by Gadianton »

It turns out I have more streaming apps than I thought, and so I was able to watch Heaven's Gate: Cult of Cults yesterday. (spoilers)

The title came from Do himself, who called it the "cult of cults" during a TV broadcast. These folks were the weird, brainy response to the Waco folks. They used self-deprecating humor like DCP extensively. Right up to the main event, they were laughing at themselves for being so weird. The whole thing was thoroughly depressing. You can almost understand why they'd want to go out the way they did rather than continuing the drudgery.

An important facet of Waco that I mentioned previously regarded those who remained faithful even after Waco. It turns out the same goes for Heaven's Gate, with suicides by other members after the main event, and others who weren't planning on "leaving their vehicles" early, had left the community, but still believed "the Church is true".

Score a point for DCP: many who left the Church left due to sin.

The former member who got the most interview time was Sawyer. A haggard guy who now lives in the mountains and quite musically talented. He is the main example of somebody who left but still believes and they could get an interview. Why did he leave? Guilt over his inability to stop punishing the Pope. He even admitted his masturbation problem to "his bishop", Do, who was understanding, and willing to work with him. But he couldn't stop, and eventually he left. Still believes.

Score another point for DCP: many who left the the Church left because they were offended by the Bishop.

Another guy, I can't remember his name, joined with his wife/girlfriend when they were young. Were members 20+ years. He eventually dropped out, she stayed and participated in the main event. He no longer believes. Obviously, the guy had really suffered. He has either a speech impediment or had some kind of throat surgery, I couldn't tell. But he reveals near the end it's psychological. During one of their meetings, he responded to a question from Do with a low voice and Do responded back in a low voice, mocking him. The point was that they were supposed to not have identifying gender attributes such as a low voice. This hurt the guy's feelings terribly, and made him so self-conscious about his voice, that it led to the speech impediment. But he was also greatly offended -- who tf did Do think he was? And that was the catalyst for leaving. The only bright spot of the entire show for me was this guy, who after all this suffering digs down and goes on vacation. He gets a van and packs it up to go tour the country.

Definitely a must-see series for anyone interested in Mormonism and apologetics.

Oh, there was one funny part. A believing member is interviewed with face darkened in like 1998. He's asked if it's a cult. He responds that the term "cult" is thrown around so liberally, and all kinds of things could be considered a cult. "The Republican Party is a cult," he says. lol.
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: Mormonism is a cult

Post by Kishkumen »

Morley wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:01 pm
I don't think testimony bearers are lying when they repeat the mantra about knowing that the 'Church is true,' or that they've had a transcendent experience. When they say it, and others believe it, in their minds the utterance becomes true.

This programming starts at an early age. When the five-year-old is asked, "Why did you pinch your brother?" she'll invariably reply, "I don't know." She's not lying, but the parent will be insistent that she is. "Yes, you do! Why did you pinch your baby brother? Tell me!" We're taught from a young age that we have a narrative duty to justify what we're doing. Rather than say that the fleshy baby bum was just too tempting for a five-year-old to resist, the girl comes up with a story that Mom will accept. And since she didn't know her own motivation in the first place, whatever explanation her mother accepts must, to the girl, be true.

This conversation about transcendent spiritual experience is all undergirded with the unvoiced assumption that humans are aware of their own motivations. We aren't. In reality, we almost invariably mindlessly act, and then when we have to, we create a narrative to explain and justify our actions. After the fact.

Let me give a example. A man finds himself slathering huge canvases with oil paint, creating enormous landscapes of Baltic Birch forests. For years, that's really all the man paints, with everything in his prodigious output a variation on the same theme: Baltic Birch forests. The motivation for why he does this is something he gives it little thought to.

It remains that way until, one day, his wife asks him, "Why do you do spend so much time doing this, Bertrand?" then "And why did you, here at the end of your life, decide to become a painter?"

Hearing these questions, Dr Russell is, at first, flummoxed. He has given almost no time to contemplating to his own motivations. He's really only been focused on the process that's involved in the production of his art. Now he finds he has to create a narrative to justify his actions--because humans, by nature, must always turn things into a story. Bertrand pours himself a cup from his teapot. Then, without really even thinking, he answers--parroting what he's heard other artists say--something about having always wanting to be a painter; about how art is in his soul (indeed it is his soul!); and about how the creative impulse is in all of us, and that he has finally given his artistic heart free rein.

His wife then asks him, "But why do you always paint these damned Birch trees?"

This is another thing Bertrand has never given a moment of thought to. However, without missing a beat, he comes up with the only thing he can think of. Since Bertrand grew up in the shadows of Freud, Jung, and Marx, he explains about his proclivity to notice that everything is deeply mysterious, that all is shadowed by a racial memory of primordial woods, and that every individual tree he paints is basically caught up in a struggle against the domineering mother forest. And also, each copse of trees that he paints also represents the struggle of the proletariat against, um, something or other.

To do anything less than create a narrative for his actions would brand Bertram as an idiot. And no man wants to be thought of as an idiot by either his wife or the rest of the world. It's also true that once Bertrand gives his reason, that reason becomes true to him, in part because he can't think of anything better that will fulfill the need that humans have for stories that explain things.
I missed this brilliant post for too long, Morley. Thanks for this. I agree.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Mormonism is a cult

Post by malkie »

Morley wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:01 pm
I don't think testimony bearers are lying when they repeat the mantra about knowing that the 'Church is true,' or that they've had a transcendent experience. When they say it, and others believe it, in their minds the utterance becomes true.

This programming starts at an early age. When the five-year-old is asked, "Why did you pinch your brother?" she'll invariably reply, "I don't know." She's not lying, but the parent will be insistent that she is. "Yes, you do! Why did you pinch your baby brother? Tell me!" We're taught from a young age that we have a narrative duty to justify what we're doing. Rather than say that the fleshy baby bum was just too tempting for a five-year-old to resist, the girl comes up with a story that Mom will accept. And since she didn't know her own motivation in the first place, whatever explanation her mother accepts must, to the girl, be true.

This conversation about transcendent spiritual experience is all undergirded with the unvoiced assumption that humans are aware of their own motivations. We aren't. In reality, we almost invariably mindlessly act, and then when we have to, we create a narrative to explain and justify our actions. After the fact.

Let me give a example. A man finds himself slathering huge canvases with oil paint, creating enormous landscapes of Baltic Birch forests. For years, that's really all the man paints, with everything in his prodigious output a variation on the same theme: Baltic Birch forests. The motivation for why he does this is something he gives it little thought to.

It remains that way until, one day, his wife asks him, "Why do you do spend so much time doing this, Bertrand?" then "And why did you, here at the end of your life, decide to become a painter?"

Hearing these questions, Dr Russell is, at first, flummoxed. He has given almost no time to contemplating to his own motivations. He's really only been focused on the process that's involved in the production of his art. Now he finds he has to create a narrative to justify his actions--because humans, by nature, must always turn things into a story. Bertrand pours himself a cup from his teapot. Then, without really even thinking, he answers--parroting what he's heard other artists say--something about having always wanting to be a painter; about how art is in his soul (indeed it is his soul!); and about how the creative impulse is in all of us, and that he has finally given his artistic heart free rein.

His wife then asks him, "But why do you always paint these damned Birch trees?"

This is another thing Bertrand has never given a moment of thought to. However, without missing a beat, he comes up with the only thing he can think of. Since Bertrand grew up in the shadows of Freud, Jung, and Marx, he explains about his proclivity to notice that everything is deeply mysterious, that all is shadowed by a racial memory of primordial woods, and that every individual tree he paints is basically caught up in a struggle against the domineering mother forest. And also, each copse of trees that he paints also represents the struggle of the proletariat against, um, something or other.

To do anything less than create a narrative for his actions would brand Bertram as an idiot. And no man wants to be thought of as an idiot by either his wife or the rest of the world. It's also true that once Bertrand gives his reason, that reason becomes true to him, in part because he can't think of anything better that will fulfill the need that humans have for stories that explain things.
How cool a story is that!

I have to assume that the teapot came all the way down to earth for Russell's benefit.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
Post Reply