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Re: Mormonism is a cult
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:05 pm
by Doctor CamNC4Me
Nimrod wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:03 pm
malkie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 2:56 am
I don't think that the members who are faking it till they make it think of themselves as lying: more like exercising faith and attempting to suspend unbelief.
So faking isn't lying? If I start hawking an investment that I hope will return 20% per year and tell potential buyers that but I don't (yet) believe it, I'm just exercising faith? I'm not a fraud?
A pious one, perhaps.
- Doc
Re: Mormonism is a cult
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:11 pm
by malkie
Kishkumen wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:16 pm
I agree. But skeptics may see it as lying.
Nimrod wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:03 pm
malkie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 2:56 am
I don't think that the members who are faking it till they make it think of themselves as lying: more like exercising faith and attempting to suspend unbelief.
So faking isn't lying? If I start hawking an investment that I hope will return 20% per year and tell potential buyers that but I don't (yet) believe it, I'm just exercising faith? I'm not a fraud?
On one level, of course it's lying/fraud, but it's also more complex than that. It's also somewhat different from selling a fraudulent investment, I think.
I would hope that those of us who have had the experience of acting in this way (myself included) would perhaps be a little more charitable - perhaps recognize it more as fooling ourselves, rather than attempting to defraud someone else.
As has been pointed out in this thread, there is often intense pressure to fit in, to be part of the group, to be accepted, and hence to accept.
I remember my first "testimony" at church. It was definitely a "fake it till you make it" affair, but I justified it to myself at the time because the missionaries who taught me (well, the last of a long string of missionaries) assured me that if I "lived the gospel" I would come to know it was true. My (now ex-)wife, who had been a member for 7 or 8 years, gave me the same assurance. I was desperate to belong.
I was baptized under unusual circumstances, not fully believing in what I had been taught, and as a result was unable to pass the "normal" baptismal interview. The Mission President had told the District Leader that he could make an exception for me, but also said that anyone else attempting similar shenanigans would be sent home.
Re: Mormonism is a cult
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:35 pm
by Nimrod
malkie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:11 pm
Kishkumen wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:16 pm
I agree. But skeptics may see it as lying.
Nimrod wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:03 pm
So faking isn't lying? If I start hawking an investment that I hope will return 20% per year and tell potential buyers that but I don't (yet) believe it, I'm just exercising faith? I'm not a fraud?
On one level, of course it's lying/fraud, but it's also more complex than that. It's also somewhat different from selling a fraudulent investment, I think.
I would hope that those of us who have had the experience of acting in this way (myself included) would perhaps be a little more charitable - perhaps recognize it more as fooling ourselves, rather than attempting to defraud someone else.
As has been pointed out in this thread, there is often intense pressure to fit in, to be part of the group, to be accepted, and hence to accept.
I remember my first "testimony" at church. It was definitely a "fake it till you make it" affair, but I justified it to myself at the time because the missionaries who taught me (well, the last of a long string of missionaries) assured me that if I "lived the gospel" I would come to know it was true. My (now ex-)wife, who had been a member for 7 or 8 years, gave me the same assurance. I was desperate to belong.
I was baptized under unusual circumstances, not fully believing in what I had been taught, and as a result was unable to pass the "normal" baptismal interview. The Mission President had told the District Leader that he could make an exception for me, but also said that anyone else attempting similar shenanigans would be sent home.
When I went through the MTC, we were told (by one of the Q12 no less) to fake a testimony and develop one by 'bearing' it--telling investigators we believed X, Y and Z even before we might believe it. This has no doubt been a tool that resulted in baptisms and tithe paying. Bingo! FRAUD.
Re: Mormonism is a cult
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:38 pm
by Nimrod
malkie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:11 pm
I remember my first "testimony" at church. It was definitely a "fake it till you make it" affair, but I justified it to myself at the time because the missionaries who taught me (well, the last of a long string of missionaries) assured me that if I "lived the gospel" I would come to know it was true. My (now ex-)wife, who had been a member for 7 or 8 years, gave me the same assurance. I was desperate to belong.ld the District Leader that he could make an exception for me, but also said that anyone else attempting similar shenanigans would be sent home.
Do you feel no responsibility for how any of those listeners in that church meeting might have been pushed by your fake-it testimony closer towards 'belief' and becoming a tithe payer?
Re: Mormonism is a cult
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:39 pm
by malkie
Nimrod wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:38 pm
malkie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:11 pm
I remember my first "testimony" at church. It was definitely a "fake it till you make it" affair, but I justified it to myself at the time because the missionaries who taught me (well, the last of a long string of missionaries) assured me that if I "lived the gospel" I would come to know it was true. My (now ex-)wife, who had been a member for 7 or 8 years, gave me the same assurance. I was desperate to belong.ld the District Leader that he could make an exception for me, but also said that anyone else attempting similar shenanigans would be sent home.
Do you feel no responsibility for how any of those listeners in that church meeting might have been pushed by your fake-it testimony closer towards 'belief' and becoming a tithe payer?
Not really, for a couple of reasons:
- I was in the midst of a small group of active, testifying people who had been members, mostly, for years.
- They were mostly trying to get me to speak up, and bear testimony.
- Shortly after, as a member of the Branch Presidency, I became aware that virtually nobody in the branch paid tithing anyway. And that's not all - for anyone who has not been in such a position, I can tell you that I don't recommend it - certainly not unless you have a strong stomach and an irrepressible personality.
- Although the branch had existed for several years, I became one of the first members to become endowed.
So I'm fairly certain that I did little or no damage.
It could be argued that I
could have hurt people by my "fake" testimony, even if I didn't, and for that I'm sorry. I had been led to believe that I was doing the right thing.
In any case, I believe that I have a lot more to be sad/sorry/repentant about from my times as an active member, and a leader in my various wards/branches and districts/stakes. I really was a bit of a dick, many times.
Re: Mormonism is a cult
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:18 pm
by Kishkumen
Marcus wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 2:24 pm
Wow. That is really the least logical explanation I have ever read for why people would define something as a cult. It is an excellent example of the ad hom logical fallacy, though.
Yeah, I didn't suppose you would get it. And, I don't separate myself from the group of people who feel this way at times. I am trying to understand my experience just as much as I am trying to understand the experience of others. I don't view this as a polemical exercise.
Re: Mormonism is a cult
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:19 pm
by Kishkumen
Morley wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:01 pm
I don't think testimony bearers are lying when they repeat the mantra about knowing that the 'Church is true,' or that they've had a transcendent experience. When they say it, and others believe it, in their minds the utterance becomes true.
I agree, and that is because they are acting as part of the community. I would recommend that any of us who want to understand this phenomenon read
Abducted by Susan A. Clancy. It really helps one understand the conversion phenomenon in a new way. As we make big changes in our perspective in response to social stimuli, we go through a process of realization of the truth of the new position and the flaws of the old position. This is true both on the way in and also on the way out the door.
Re: Mormonism is a cult
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:34 pm
by Marcus
Yeah, I didn't suppose you would get it.
But of course you would think that.
Kishkumen wrote:
...And, I don't separate myself from the group of people who feel this way at times. I am trying to understand my experience...
makes sense. I still don't agree that defining something as a cult can be simplified to a type of 'buyer's remorse', but it does help to explain that this comment is based on one's experience:
Eventually you will get tired of it. And people do. And they get pissed off. And they leave. And who can blame them?
...It must be a cult. That is a viable explanation to them.
But, hold on, maybe it is just the case that you fell for the bait-and-switch, the same kind that exists all over the place...Is it a cult?
Nah.
It is only a cult because people have to manage their retrospective embarrassment and regret for having, for so many years, put so much into something that took more than it gave back.
In the end however, the outward, agreed-upon definition of a cult doesn't depend on whether one uses the term to hide embarrassment. If anything, one could argue that the embarrassment expressed actually lends credence to the use of the term 'cult.'
Re: Mormonism is a cult
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:50 pm
by Morley
Kishkumen wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:19 pm
I would recommend that any of us who want to understand this phenomenon read
Abducted by Susan A. Clancy.
I've not read it, but am aware of her theories on so-called repressed memories and childhood sexual abuse. I'm guessing this is in the same vein.
Re: Mormonism is a cult
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:47 pm
by Gadianton
Kishkumen wrote: It certainly isn't acceptable from the perspective of Mormons.
99.999999% of what I say on this board would not be acceptable from the perspective of active Utah Mormons. Note, however, that I am Mormon, and it acceptable to me.
Kishkumen wrote:And, as long as people accept that position as viable, they can say they know the LDS Church is true with a straight face and clean conscience.
Yet, criticizing the Church is mere cognitive dissonance? It seems they are doing better than I am, for sure.
My theory about lying is a bit more nuanced than I've illustrated so far. If you're interested, I'm going to get into that in my response to Morley. the BKP theory was a great callout on your part, it's a can of worms for my theory though; not sure how to deal with it.