Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
User avatar
Physics Guy
God
Posts: 1557
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:40 am
Location: on the battlefield of life

Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by Physics Guy »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 2:12 pm
If we’re talking about a specific kind of faith that serves a purpose then I think it’s helpful to the philosophical questions presented to break out the different kinds of faith so we’re speaking clearly to one another - in my opinion it helps reduce miscommunication. Using “beta-faith” in question to the trust we employ when flying gives clarity makes sense, while applying “alpha-faith” doesn’t.

To me, it’s sort of like having the word ‘love’ to describe the wide variety of ‘love’ we experience. If we’re having a discussion about love it helps to know the specific kind of love we’re discussing and then using a word that accurately describes it.
Yeah, I agree with this, and it was part of what I was trying to say before. I don't know if "alpha-faith" and "beta-faith" are going to be the catchiest terms, but we might need something like this and I have no great alternative. Or maybe we can get by just by recognising that "faith" is often going to need further qualification, and adding a sentence or so to specify what flavour of faith we mean when we use the term.

I'd also like to know what New Testament authors may have meant by pistis. I don't consider that their meanings have to be definitive (I'd be surprised if there was one consistent meaning) but they'll obviously be a significant precedent for Christian concepts of faith. On the other hand, my one-time ambition to learn New Testament Greek myself petered out too quickly to leave any residue at all now, but for what it's worth I remember being told by an instructor that we shouldn't expect any great revelations or clarifications from learning the language, because if our English translations used a vague word like "love", the original Greek was probably equally vague.
I was a teenager before it was cool.
User avatar
JohnW
Valiant A
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:11 pm

Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by JohnW »

All I can say is, Wow! I love where this thread is going. Thanks to PhysicsGuy, Gadianton, Malkie, Marcus, Cam, and others. These types of discussions are why I'm here on this board. I feel like we religious people too readily dismiss opinions like the ones you guys have brought up. When we do that, we only have a shallow understanding of faith or too narrow a definition of our own religious concepts. I think that may come from us focusing on trying to convince non-believers to agree with us. When we let that go and just try to learn from non-believers, I find that discussion is the most fruitful. That is my experience at least.

You have given me a lot to think about. I'll have to mull it over and try to summarize it sometime in the next couple days.
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by malkie »

JohnW, it's a pleasure interacting with you, and getting a thoughtful look at how you think and feel.

I've been struck several times by the contrast between the vast gulf that separates us on many issues and the narrow gap over which we approach each other on other issues.

Thanks for making me think.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
drumdude
God
Posts: 5212
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by drumdude »

JohnW wrote:
Sat May 20, 2023 8:02 pm
All I can say is, Wow! I love where this thread is going. Thanks to PhysicsGuy, Gadianton, Malkie, Marcus, Cam, and others. These types of discussions are why I'm here on this board. I feel like we religious people too readily dismiss opinions like the ones you guys have brought up. When we do that, we only have a shallow understanding of faith or too narrow a definition of our own religious concepts. I think that may come from us focusing on trying to convince non-believers to agree with us. When we let that go and just try to learn from non-believers, I find that discussion is the most fruitful. That is my experience at least.

You have given me a lot to think about. I'll have to mull it over and try to summarize it sometime in the next couple days.
Your posts are always thoughtful and respectful and I appreciate reading what faithful members have to say when they truly listen to criticism and engage with it in good faith. That’s so rare within Mormonism but you’ve made it look easy.
User avatar
JohnW
Valiant A
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:11 pm

Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by JohnW »

Thanks everyone for contributing to this thread. I learned a lot, especially from the last few pages. I thought I would summarize my thoughts from the last few pages, not necessarily to close out the thread, although I think we got sufficient juice out of the squeeze that if we ended here it would have been a worthwhile conversation. If people think my summary is too believer-focused, let me know or put in your own perspective.

I think my main point in starting this thread was to recapture some of the respectability of the term faith. I hear it used pejoratively fairly often, and I thought non-believers didn't realize how they use faith all the time, or maybe a better word is trust. After this conversation I realized maybe there just isn't a great word that captures the concept without too much additional baggage.

I'm now realizing that my terms were too muddled, and I was probably too interested in convincing others about my position. I absolutely loved the exchange between Gadianton and PhysicsGuy. Here is an excerpt:
Physics Guy wrote:
Thu May 18, 2023 9:58 am
Gadianton wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 4:48 am
The most fundamental kind of religious faith is belief in the miracle. Every holy book out there is rooted in some kind of miracle. That's basically what makes it a religion. When you first throw in to follow that charismatic leader, it's all about the mystery and wonders the leader will perform. Faith is belief that the UFO will appear; that this convincing leader can make that UFO appear. ... it's like putting your money on that pharmaceutical start-up that will 1000x if they can pull it off while the critics balk. So you sell all you have, you follow that prophet, and six month's later, all the crap he's talked up doesn't materialize. Well, in the interim, you've established a relationship with the leader and the group, and now the criteria of your faith shifts from belief in the miracle, to loyalty to the leader and group.
I think this is true. There's a phase or form or kind of faith that is all about making a bold leap with high hopes, and then there's this other phase or form or kind of faith that seems to be completely the opposite: stay in the boat and don't ask for too much. Both these things regularly do get called "faith", but when you look from this angle, it's hard to see why we'd ever even think them alike, let alone call them the same.

Even as I'm shaking my head at how opposite these two notions of faith seem to be, though, other things besides faith spring to mind that have the same kind of paradox. Romantic love is both giddy infatuation and steadfast faithfulness. Artistic creation is both ecstatic vision and dogged persistence; so is scientific discovery. Starting a business is staking all you have on a dream—and staying up late grinding details.
Faith can be the thing that helps us make that leap of . . . well faith. It can also be that thing that helps us stay the course through difficult times all the way to fruition. On the other hand, faith can also be the thing that makes us ignore all reason and get involved in extremely unhealthy craziness. It can also be the thing that keeps us in that craziness when deep down we know it is destroying us.

Ultimately, this concept of faith or trust or (insert better word here) shouldn't be used as an argument for or against spirituality. This is just one of those human things we encounter wherever we find humans. I think I originally harbored hopes that if non-believers saw that faith isn't as foreign as they thought, they might soften their views on religion. I think I was misguided in those hopes. Again, I think this is because this deeper understanding of faith is not a strictly positive concept. It seems to be entirely neutral. It can be used to accomplish much good in the world, and it can be used to entrap and destroy.

Anyway, thanks again for the discussion. I feel like I learned a lot about something I thought I had already explored to its fullest extent. It just goes to show that exploring a concept with people who have a completely different world-view than your own can absolutely uncover wrinkles and folds you overlooked before.
Marcus
God
Posts: 5033
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by Marcus »

JohnW wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 9:28 pm
.. I think I originally harbored hopes that if non-believers saw that faith isn't as foreign as they thought, they might soften their views on religion. I think I was misguided in those hopes...
"non-believers"? "they"??? :roll: You thought the people here wouldn't be familiar with the concept of faith?

Feel free to come here to discuss things with other adults. Please leave the labeling behind.
User avatar
Morley
God
Posts: 1560
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:17 pm
Location: detail from Alice Neel's 1980 self portrait

Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by Morley »

Morley wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 7:56 am
Thank you for your long, thoughtful reply, John. I’m not able to now, but will try to respond, in like manner, in a couple of weeks.

Edit:

A few words, until then: It also reads as though it’s “Pride and Faith” that are the duo that are making you stay in the Church. Am I wrong? I’m not sure that I’m picking up on your humility and doubt.

Trust that one can master a simple machine that you’ve seen hundreds of children ride to school, is not the same as having a faith in a supernatural being who made an evil man rich and cursed my friend with black skin so he can’t vote. Then this all-powerful, all-knowing being sent men, who said they were prophets, who either misrepresented or lied to me about what they absolutely knew that he (God) said. Faith in God and bicycle riding are not the same. It’s not pride or faith keeping me from mastering the bike, it’s lack of practice.

That bicycle might get me to work, but it’s not going to raise me from the dead.
JohnW wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 2:19 am
Thanks. I look forward to it. When comparing riding a bike to faith, I'm more comparing the feeling of learning a bike to the feeling of beginning to have faith. It reminds me of the same feelings: uncomfortable, exposed, unsure, and even a little scary. There are clearly some aspects of the comparison that just don't fit.

As far as pride and faith keeping me in the church. I'll have to think about that one. I look forward to your explanation.
John, I give you full credit for wading in here, attempting dialogue, and conducting yourself in a civil manner. On the other hand, because you write with a barely disguised condescension (that I'm not sure you even know is there), I personally have a difficult time taking you seriously.

I went back, bought your book, and read it, to see if there was something I was missing. However, after doing so, I don't think I was wrong. It has the same tone you carry here, that of an educated, I've-got-a-PhD-and-you-don't, ward bishop speaking to his congregants, without addressing any specifics. In my reading, you never really address any issues any deeper than "Having faith in God is like having faith in riding a bicycle" or "On the God/Santa issue, when you discover your dad is Santa, is that really so bad? He is kinda like Santa, and God is kinda like your dad."

I'll admit, however, that the problem is probably just with me--and the fact that I'm almost certainly not the audience you're writing for, neither in your book nor on this board.

I'm still curious about your response to how your humility at finding that you were having a difficult time figuring out quantum mechanics while getting your PhD in physics is what kept you in The CoJCoLDS, while my teen-aged pride at realizing that I was no better than my Black brothers-in-arms, who were being kept out of the priesthood because of their skin color, was my undoing.
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by Kishkumen »

Morley wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 6:52 pm
I went back, bought your book, and read it, to see if there was something I was missing. However, after doing so, I don't think I was wrong. It has the same tone you carry here, that of an educated, I've-got-a-PhD-and-you-don't, ward bishop speaking to his congregants, without addressing any specifics. In my reading, you never really address any issues any deeper than "Having faith in God is like having faith in riding a bicycle" or "On the God/Santa issue, when you discover your dad is Santa, is that really so bad? He is kinda like Santa, and God is kinda like your dad."

I'll admit, however, that the problem is probably just with me--and the fact that I'm almost certainly not the audience you're writing for, neither in your book nor on this board.

I'm still curious about your response to how your humility at finding that you were having a difficult time figuring out quantum mechanics while getting your PhD in physics is what kept you in The CoJCoLDS, while my teen-aged pride at realizing that I was no better than my Black brothers-in-arms, who were being kept out of the priesthood because of their skin color, was my undoing.
What is this book you refer to?
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
User avatar
Morley
God
Posts: 1560
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:17 pm
Location: detail from Alice Neel's 1980 self portrait

Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by Morley »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 7:21 pm


What is this book you refer to?
https://www.amazon.com/Truth-Reason-Sci ... 88&sr=8-1
User avatar
JohnW
Valiant A
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:11 pm

Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by JohnW »

Morley wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 6:52 pm
John, I give you full credit for wading in here, attempting dialogue, and conducting yourself in a civil manner. On the other hand, because you write with a barely disguised condescension (that I'm not sure you even know is there), I personally have a difficult time taking you seriously.

I went back, bought your book, and read it, to see if there was something I was missing. However, after doing so, I don't think I was wrong. It has the same tone you carry here, that of an educated, I've-got-a-PhD-and-you-don't, ward bishop speaking to his congregants, without addressing any specifics. In my reading, you never really address any issues any deeper than "Having faith in God is like having faith in riding a bicycle" or "On the God/Santa issue, when you discover your dad is Santa, is that really so bad? He is kinda like Santa, and God is kinda like your dad."

I'll admit, however, that the problem is probably just with me--and the fact that I'm almost certainly not the audience you're writing for, neither in your book nor on this board.
Yes, I've been told that my writing is overly authoritative. I'm not quite sure why that is or how it happens, but apparently my writing often comes across that way. You aren't the first person to notice that. I had an LDS publisher interested in my book. They said they loved the content but hated the tone. They wanted me to rewrite it to give a more exploratory feeling. Unfortunately I'm not a trained writer, so I didn't think I had the skills to do that. Truthfully, I was also maybe just a little tired of writing it and didn't want to do what felt like starting over. I would like to think that only my writing comes across as condescending, and that I'm not like that in real life. I understand, however, that may not be easily recognizable in oneself.

As far as the content of the book goes, it probably isn't surprising that you didn't find much that interested you. My intent was not to write a book full of air-tight apologetic arguments. I essentially just wrote the book I wish I had when I was struggling with my faith. I was a logical thinker that really wanted to make all the jumbled puzzle pieces fit. It took me quite a few years before I realized I was playing the wrong game. I was supposed to make a collage, not complete a puzzle. It turns out in life that things just don't fit all the time.

Anyway, the assumption of the book is that the reader is already a believer who is trying to add just a little more rigor to their beliefs. It is intentionally vague, because I find that when you leave exercises to the student, they get more out of the textbook. The book doesn't really convince people who aren't already trying. It wasn't ever really intended to. Also, I find that when people get bogged down in arguing specifics about a theological issue, all that really takes place is arguing.
I'm still curious about your response to how your humility at finding that you were having a difficult time figuring out quantum mechanics while getting your PhD in physics is what kept you in The CoJCoLDS, while my teen-aged pride at realizing that I was no better than my Black brothers-in-arms, who were being kept out of the priesthood because of their skin color, was my undoing.
I've thought about this one a bit. After the conversation on this thread about faith, I wonder if a similar thing happens with pride and humility. Those words can encompass a wide array of human conditions. When I said a few pages back that I thought pride to be the common characteristic with people who leave the church, it is certainly possible what I am witnessing is just a firm decision that has already been made. That could certainly come across as prideful. When I consider humility as the thing that kept me in the church, that could just mean I was unsure and had no idea who to trust. That may have made me more willing to weigh opinions carefully and dig deeper in order to learn more. In that context, I could see how my firm conviction that the church is true could come across as prideful to you, just as I might view other's firm conviction the church is false as prideful. On the other hand, I know people who seem to have firm convictions about almost everything, often without really thinking much on the topic. Anyway, I'll have to contemplate that one some more.

Thanks for you candid response. I really do appreciate it.
Post Reply