Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

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Marcus
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Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by Marcus »

JohnW wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 2:52 am
Marcus wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 9:27 pm
Here’s a similar answer from a GA. The more jaded part of me suspects he has given this talk more than once.
...
There is a whole lot of truth to what this general authority says.

No there's not.
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Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by Dr. Shades »

JohnW wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 3:50 am
Dr. Shades wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 9:54 am
We can all list a number of completely coherent and logical reasons to NOT believe in Santa Claus. If I nevertheless rejected those reasons and trusted what my parents and classmates had originally told me about him--you know, had faith in Santa Claus--would you praise me or pity me? Why?
What he found out that day was that his understanding of the whole situation was terribly incomplete. When we talk about existence of God, most people use the wrong types of argument. . . If your faith is primarily in your personal experience, then that could be a good thing and would eventually lead you to the truth.
Please tell us what the right types of argument are that keep you believing in Mormonism.
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Physics Guy
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Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by Physics Guy »

Logic will accept assumptions that aren't actually true, as long as they're consistent. So logic isn't a sufficient guide to truth, for anyone. Everyone needs something besides logic.

Logic isn't just useless, though. Logic can screen out initial assumptions that are self-contradictory, or that contradict other assumptions to which you are also committed. Those things definitely cannot all be true. Whatever is true, it's not them.

Logic is a sniff test. Logic can't detect every falsehood, just as sniffing won't save you from odorless poisons in food. The fact that you can't smell botulism anyway is not a good reason to swallow everything in the fridge without sniffing it, though. There are other bad things besides botulism, and a lot of them do smell bad. You can save yourself from those things by applying the sniff test.

So I do not agree that having religious faith is about believing logically inconsistent things. Logic isn't a sufficient guide to truth but it is a necessary one.
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Rivendale
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Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by Rivendale »

JohnW wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 2:26 am
Rivendale wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 1:07 pm
I will never understand how someone can compell themselves to believe something that is logically incoherent.
This is probably one of the main reasons faith is difficult for you, assuming that is the case. I'm not trying to be offensive, just pointing out that the personality types that are highly logical tend to have issues with faith. I am one of those personality types. There was a time I really struggled with faith. It is still an uncomfortable thing for me at times.




The main problem with this personality type (speaking from experience) is that we assume that if something is logical, then it is true. It only takes an elementary study of logic to know this is not the case. Logic is a good method to process information, but if the initial information is bad, no amount of logic will help you find the truth. This is true in both secular and non-secular realms.


The problem resides in the aggregate of Mormon truth claims. Sure logic can be faulty. But when you consider the many claims such as disembodied consciousness, spiritual realms, prophecy, faith healings and then compare them to the physical world they fail. All of them. Eta. And furthermore, you are doing the same thing to every other faith claim that I am applying to mormism. How is your form of reasoning superior to every other god claims that humans have made? It sounds like special pleading to me.
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malkie
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Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by malkie »

JohnW wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 2:42 am
malkie wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 4:29 pm

I have difficulty with the whole idea of choosing to believe - in anything.
This is probably the crux of the issue for you. I understand that in some cases there is sufficient evidence to weigh things in your mind, as you describe. What do you do when there is inconclusive evidence and you must make a decision? Surely you have come across situations like this in your life. In addition there are situations where we think we have conclusive evidence, but we actually don't . . . and we won't discover that fact until sometime in the future.

I guess if you live in such a way to never chose to believe in anything, then in my mind you limit your choices to situations where you have sufficient evidence (or feel like you do). That doesn't seem like living life to its full extent, but I recognize I am biased. I can come up with a bunch of examples of decisions in life where we are hopeful and believe the choice we make will be something good for us despite the inconclusive evidence we have at the moment of decision.
Good points, and fair questions, JohnW!

It looks as if my 'scale' description was not clear enough. In any case, of course, I can't claim that I'm an unfeeling robot about decisions - my 'gut' also informs my decisions, along with ideas about consequences for me and for others. For me, the idea of "sufficient evidence" is at best a hope, and I accept that there are always going to be situations in which the evidence is shaky, or potentially subject to unknowns. I admit that I have a tendency to get into the state of analysis paralysis.

But, to answer your questions directly:

When there is inconclusive evidence and I must make a decision, my decision is based on the balance of the evidence - minus any temporary finger-on-the-scale. I actually find it hard to imagine that there is ever any other way of deciding.

In a situation where I think I have conclusive evidence, but actually don't . . . and won't discover that fact until sometime in the future, I act exactly the same way. Having no knowledge of the future, I can only hope that my balancing act is fair. And I know that I can have no reasonable expectation at all of consistently making perfect future-proof decisions.

One principle that I have tried to adhere to in my life is that of not feeling guilty about the outcomes of carefully made decisions. If I make a decision based on the best evidence available to me at the time, then, by definition, I could not have made a better decision. So in the sense of not being happy with an outcome I may well regret my decision, but I should not beat myself up for doing what I was convinced at the time was the best course of action.

At the same time I try my best to 'own' my decisions. To be specific about how this contrasts with what I know of some religion-based decision making, I have no god to call on for help, and no god to blame when things go wrong. I'm human, and fallible, and have to accept that. Instead of saying that I failed because I didn't please god, or have sufficient faith, or pray long or hard enough, or I watched an R-rated movie, etc., I must accept that any failure was due to incomplete knowledge, or faulty analysis/weighing of evidence, on my part.
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Rivendale
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Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by Rivendale »

Physics Guy wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 9:47 am
Logic will accept assumptions that aren't actually true, as long as they're consistent. So logic isn't a sufficient guide to truth, for anyone. Everyone needs something besides logic.

Logic isn't just useless, though. Logic can screen out initial assumptions that are self-contradictory, or that contradict other assumptions to which you are also committed. Those things definitely cannot all be true. Whatever is true, it's not them.

Logic is a sniff test. Logic can't detect every falsehood, just as sniffing won't save you from odorless poisons in food. The fact that you can't smell botulism anyway is not a good reason to swallow everything in the fridge without sniffing it, though. There are other bad things besides botulism, and a lot of them do smell bad. You can save yourself from those things by applying the sniff test.

So I do not agree that having religious faith is about believing logically inconsistent things. Logic isn't a sufficient guide to truth but it is a necessary one.
I disagree. You absolutely have to believe in inconsistencies. Rising from the dead for one requires a complete reset for all human experiences. Spritual interactions with human brains require a belief in a realm we have no concrete evidence for. And if human experiences are discounted in favor of bad logic what is left?
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by Doctor Steuss »

Physics Guy wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 9:47 am
Logic will accept assumptions that aren't actually true, as long as they're consistent. So logic isn't a sufficient guide to truth, for anyone. Everyone needs something besides logic.

Logic isn't just useless, though. Logic can screen out initial assumptions that are self-contradictory, or that contradict other assumptions to which you are also committed. Those things definitely cannot all be true. Whatever is true, it's not them.

Logic is a sniff test. Logic can't detect every falsehood, just as sniffing won't save you from odorless poisons in food. The fact that you can't smell botulism anyway is not a good reason to swallow everything in the fridge without sniffing it, though. There are other bad things besides botulism, and a lot of them do smell bad. You can save yourself from those things by applying the sniff test.

So I do not agree that having religious faith is about believing logically inconsistent things. Logic isn't a sufficient guide to truth but it is a necessary one.
Somewhat unrelated (maybe?), but this reminded me of a book about children and logic I read a long (long) time ago. I unfortunately can't remember the title or author (and google isn't being any help).

It had a lot of various anecdotal examples of kids, but one of them has stuck with me because of how logical it was, while also being incredibly cute and funny (to me, at least).

It was an account of a child who was flying on an airplane for the first time. As they began to take off, the child turned to their parent and asked when they would start to shrink.

Planes in the sky appear to be small. Planes taking off appear to get smaller as they get further away. Given the experiential information the child had, it was entirely logical that they would have to shrink at some point while flying.
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Gadianton
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Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by Gadianton »

from another thread, concerning a film project, this bit is relevant here:
On June 15, 2021, two brothers--both returned missionaries for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--set out on a mission of discovery into a remote part of the DR Congo. Their hope was to find a group of believers who had been waiting for baptism for nearly 50 years. No one knew what they would find or if they would find anything at all. Yet, with little more than a prayer in their hearts, they set out on a 1,200-kilometer journey to find those lost Saints.
More importantly than the prayer in their hearts, did the two brothers who set on this journey have the faith not to find the lost Saints?
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Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by honorentheos »

JohnW wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 2:19 am
Morley wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 7:56 am
Thank you for your long, thoughtful reply, John. I’m not able to now, but will try to respond, in like manner, in a couple of weeks.

Edit:

A few words, until then: It also reads as though it’s “Pride and Faith” that are the duo that are making you stay in the Church. Am I wrong? I’m not sure that I’m picking up on your humility and doubt.

Trust that one can master a simple machine that you’ve seen hundreds of children ride to school, is not the same as having a faith in a supernatural being who made an evil man rich and cursed my friend with black skin so he can’t vote. Then this all-powerful, all-knowing being sent men, who said they were prophets, who either misrepresented or lied to me about what they absolutely knew that he (God) said. Faith in God and bicycle riding are not the same. It’s not pride or faith keeping me from mastering the bike, it’s lack of practice.

That bicycle might get me to work, but it’s not going to raise me from the dead.
Thanks. I look forward to it. When comparing riding a bike to faith, I'm more comparing the feeling of learning a bike to the feeling of beginning to have faith. It reminds me of the same feelings: uncomfortable, exposed, unsure, and even a little scary. There are clearly some aspects of the comparison that just don't fit.

As far as pride and faith keeping me in the church. I'll have to think about that one. I look forward to your explanation.
I've shared my experience a few times, but it seems worth bringing up in context of the above. My journey out of the LDS faith wasn't a shelf breaking epiphany. It was a line-upon-line experience. While hard to say this was the real start, it is useful for me to see that start with my being in college and in an Army Reserve Unit that was activated to go to Iraq during the build-up to war. Most members of our unit were all-in on the argument that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, that Hussein was involved in 9/11, and that unilateral war was justified. I wasn't sure the evidence supported this, but if anything I was a soldier and duty was duty. Experience and a little time led me to feel misled, with damning consequences, and a sense that just because authority was asserted shouldn't mean I comply if something seemed wrong. The Church and its authority wasn't on my mind initially, but it had to be confronted when I came across an issue online with LDS history and my instinct was well-trained to ignore it, move on. With this new life experience, I realized doing so wasn't honest so I didn't, but still acted in faith that the answers were available, my own spiritual experiences sure, and the truth would redeem the Church.

It didn't work out quite that way, and after about two years of struggling with what appeared to me to be clear indications the Church was not what it claimed yet feeling strongly that my own spiritual experiences and faithfulness wasn't built on lies, I found myself regularly praying hard for help. One day, I felt the answer came clear and in the voice of President Benson: "The Proud stand more in fear of men's judgements than of God's judgements." I had been given a copy of the Pride talk while serving as a missionary and could likely have quoted most of it at the time, so that wasn't surprising it came to mind that way. But it came clear to me as a response to my desire to know what I was supposed to do. I realized then what kept me holding onto the LDS Church wasn't faith in God, but fear of what others would think if I acted on what seemed to be clear facts to me. If God was a God of truth, why was I shirking from the truth out of fear of men's approval? This was reaffirmed to me by a friend with whom I talked this over who was one of those good friends unafraid to call me out if needed. And he did, wondering why I seemed to want someone to tell me what to do here when it was obvious I had figured out what I thought was the right thing to do?

The journey after that continued, but that was when I realized the Church could be wrong and I could act on that in faith because the Church wasn't the arbiter of truth, but of what was best for the Church.
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Gadianton
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Re: Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

Post by Gadianton »

To put my point more directly: I think there is serious tension between muster-seed faith and having the faith "not to be healed".

"Faith" is an erratic word, conveying different things depending on context. And the game of faith with religionists if often bait and switch. I remember giving my first talk in church as a child. It was on faith. I used examples from Paul H. Dunn as I'd gotten his tapes for Christmas. I must have been around 9, and I explained to the audience how easy it is to walk across a board a foot wide and so many feet long if raised a few inches above the ground, but raise it a hundred feet in the air? This is conventional muster-seed faith or optimist faith that everyone agrees is good. But what to make of the question, "Do you have the faith to walk that plank raised in the air 100 feet and fall, and nobody catches you, and you break all the bones in your body?"

When the question is posed with a wise stroke of the chin and raise of the brow, "but do you have the faith not to be healed?", it's an immediate context change. We aren't talking about muster-seed faith anymore, we're talking about loyalty faith. A shrewd religionist might say "faith not to be healed" = "faith to get back up" after falling off the plank. But that obviously isn't true, when considering the context of faith as loyalty is totally different. Faith = prayer for a sick relative, is totally different than faith = knock on 1000 doors a day as a missionary.

Talks on faith often begin with faith = optimism. Everyone agrees with the big-hearted optimist who perseveres though challenges. Somehow that gets twisted into absolute loyalty to the Brethren through faith's discursive semantic journey as the talk reaches its finale.

Faith can mean many different things that may or may not be related:

faith = muster-seed optimism.
faith = believing without seeing.
faith = loyalty to a person or institution
faith = precondition of knowledge; atheists have faith too! (John W. ; Jack Chick etc.)
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