Mike Parker is back from his 1 day break to smear Bill Reel

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Kishkumen
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Re: Mike Parker is back from his 1 day break to smear Bill Reel

Post by Kishkumen »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 11:39 pm
I guess it was all the other FARMS Mopologists other than DCP?
Daniel Peterson wrote: I learned yesterday on the Peterson Obsession Board that, as an apologist, I may have been given “sweetheart deals” (by the Church or, anyway, by somebody) for my cars and my house. Do I really need to say that I never received any such “sweetheart deals”? Since, in that quarter, I’m presumed to be lying every time my lips move or my fingers type, would it do any good?
So, no sweetheart deals, but that is not exactly the same thing as sweetheart loans, which is what I said. In any case, I can only report what I heard, and what I heard was from someone whose honesty is absolutely unimpeachable. No matter what anyone claims that makes apologists look bad in some way, even if it is true, DCP is going to say something to contradict it or at least something that apparently contradicts it.

Honestly, I trust my sources a lot more than I trust him. Some of the best people I have known in my life, the most honest, full of integrity, and upright people, have reported unfavorable things about the Classic-FARMS crew. We are talking about some of the finest LDS people, finest Christians, finest people. What am I to make of the fact that they said a variety of things that were unflattering of the apologists? Do I doubt them and take what DCP says at face value? Sorry, but I trust them more than I trust him.

I am not saying that DCP is lying. I am saying he feels no obligation to level with people whom he sees as his enemies. In his view, whatever we think we know is none of our business, I would guess. And so it is. People I know and respect told me this stuff, and I trust that they were being straight with me. Maybe they were in error about the details of this issue. I doubt they were dead wrong in every respect. I suppose that there were financial issues that raised concerns or jealousies. One fellow I know who is about the most decent and upright men I know straight up said to me that the Mopologists are liars. That’s not me talking. That’s not me making things up. I was actually taken aback by his dismay about it.

There was also the time when one of my BYU associates told me that people were concerned about the honesty of John Gee’s apologetics on the Book of Abraham. Some other guys I knew said they absolutely hated working with the Classic-FARMS folk and had real concerns about them.

And we have had lots of our own bad experiences with them over the years. We have seen them in action with our own eyes.

My bottom line with all of this is that I will never see things the way the Mopologists see things. I may agree with them on some stuff, but I think there is a huge chasm between us in other areas, and I trust that the people whom I admire who had problems with the Mopologists were right on target. Even if I am a problematic judge myself in the eyes of faithful LDS, or good Christians, my sources were people of great integrity—faithful LDS, good Christians, men of integrity. I just haven’t met a Mopologist whom I thought could touch a one of them in terms of sterling character.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Mike Parker is back from his 1 day break to smear Bill Reel

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I agree with kishkumen on this. I documented Peterson's dishonesty in the form of his plagiarism dozens of times. As I did so, I was shocked to see his response. He repeatedly insisted that he had not plagiarized, then that he had not plagiarized on purpose, then that he was in good company with other great authors who had (like himself) been accused of such. His responses bordered on the pathological, and solidified my opinion that he simply could not be trusted, in any context, to be honest. He still plagiarizes to this day, I just don’t have time at the moment to document them all. I am keeping notes, and I’ll catch up soon, but in the meantime, his continued dishonesty continues to erode any reputation he may hope to have. His plagiarism is an execrable habit.
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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Mike Parker is back from his 1 day break to smear Bill Reel

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 2:34 am
I am not saying that DCP is lying.
You are too much of a gentleman to ever call DCP a liar.

On the other hand, I have no such qualms. Based on my personal experiences with DCP over the last few decades I can confidently say that DCP seldom tells the truth. In fact, when it comes to DCP I've adopted the following approach, which I call the reverse Muhlstein. The reverse Muhlstein has served me well over the years.

“I start out with an assumption that everything DCP does or says is a lie. Therefore, any evidence I find, I will try to fit into that paradigm." -- Uncle Wang
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

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Kishkumen
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Re: Mike Parker is back from his 1 day break to smear Bill Reel

Post by Kishkumen »

Marcus wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 2:54 am
I agree with kishkumen on this. I documented Peterson's dishonesty in the form of his plagiarism dozens of times. As I did so, I was shocked to see his response. He repeatedly insisted that he had not plagiarized, then that he had not plagiarized on purpose, then that he was in good company with other great authors who had (like himself) been accused of such. His responses bordered on the pathological, and solidified my opinion that he simply could not be trusted, in any context, to be honest. He still plagiarizes to this day, I just don’t have time at the moment to document them all. I am keeping notes, and I’ll catch up soon, but in the meantime, his continued dishonesty continues to erode any reputation he may hope to have. His plagiarism is an execrable habit.
I will add this: If I had ever noticed the LDS Church taking clear action to police the behavior of its apologists to make sure that it was consistent with its own avowed teachings and standards, that would have made a big positive difference for me. The mismatch between the organization’s values in practice and the obedience it expects from the rank and file is a total dealbreaker for me. It is one thing to point to the fact that we live in an imperfect world and even the LDS Church is just trying its best under less than ideal circumstance, but it is another to say this and still expect a high level of obedience. There is no way I can see these guys do what they do and turn around and commit to following their orders as if God himself had issued them. No way. Not gonna happen.

I’ll tell you who I respect. Jim Bennett. If he had been the leader of LDS apologetics for the past three decades, so much would be different. So much would be better. Instead, we got the Classic-FARMS guys, and the damage done by them is difficult to estimate. I am sure the price has been a heavy one, not only in a loss of members but, more importantly, in the damage to the soul of the organization. I don’t see Christ in Mopologetics. At all.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Kishkumen
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Re: Mike Parker is back from his 1 day break to smear Bill Reel

Post by Kishkumen »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:09 am
You are too much of a gentleman to ever call DCP a liar.

On the other hand, I have no such qualms. Based on my personal experiences with DCP over the last few decades I can confidently say that DCP seldom tells the truth. In fact, when it comes to DCP I've adopted the following approach, which I call the reverse Muhlstein. The reverse Muhlstein has served me well over the years.

“I start out with an assumption that everything DCP does or says is a lie. Therefore, any evidence I find, I will try to fit into that paradigm." -- Uncle Wang
Well, recently I did pretty much call him one, but I edited the posts to soften them because I did feel like I had been rude. He contacted me to tell me he was going to reveal my personal identity, and we had a tense email exchange. He did name names in the comments on his blog, which honestly I do not appreciate. I think I am pretty much through with him. Each of us thinks little of the other, and that will not change. Neither of us thinks we have done anything particularly wrong, and each of us thinks the other has blinkered moral judgment. It is an impasse.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Mike Parker is back from his 1 day break to smear Bill Reel

Post by Bill_Billiams »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:22 am

Well, recently I did pretty much call him one, but I edited the posts to soften them because I did feel like I had been rude. He contacted me to tell me he was going to reveal my personal identity, and we had a tense email exchange. He did name names in the comments on his blog, which honestly I do not appreciate. I think I am pretty much through with him. Each of us thinks little of the other, and that will not change. Neither of us thinks we have done anything particularly wrong, and each of us thinks the other has blinkered moral judgment. It is an impasse.
Is it some kind of mopologist tradition to doxx people?
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Kishkumen
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Re: Mike Parker is back from his 1 day break to smear Bill Reel

Post by Kishkumen »

Bill_Billiams wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 7:48 am
Is it some kind of mopologist tradition to doxx people?
Historically there have been attempts to harm people’s employment and interfere with their lives in other ways. I have heard of such things from the mouths of the targets themselves.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Mike Parker is back from his 1 day break to smear Bill Reel

Post by MsJack »

I just caught up on the 2-hour-46-minute discussion between Reel and Pynnaker.

My God. Do Mormon apologists never stop digging?

And who goes to someone's place of business in-person to confront them over something that happened on the Internet? Was Bill Reel's e-mail not working?

Big kudos to Reel for not flinching after Parker's absurd legal threats. We had a megachurch pastor here in the Chicago area (James MacDonald) who sued two bloggers and a reporter for defamation for investigating his church's scandals. Discovery started and the e-mail and chat trails from his elders started coming out. They were beyond devastating and embarrassing.

I imagine discovery in this case would have likewise proved devastating and embarrassing.
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Re: Mike Parker is back from his 1 day break to smear Bill Reel

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:22 am
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:09 am
You are too much of a gentleman to ever call DCP a liar.

On the other hand, I have no such qualms. Based on my personal experiences with DCP over the last few decades I can confidently say that DCP seldom tells the truth. In fact, when it comes to DCP I've adopted the following approach, which I call the reverse Muhlstein. The reverse Muhlstein has served me well over the years.

“I start out with an assumption that everything DCP does or says is a lie. Therefore, any evidence I find, I will try to fit into that paradigm." -- Uncle Wang
Well, recently I did pretty much call him one, but I edited the posts to soften them because I did feel like I had been rude. He contacted me to tell me he was going to reveal my personal identity, and we had a tense email exchange. He did name names in the comments on his blog, which honestly I do not appreciate. I think I am pretty much through with him. Each of us thinks little of the other, and that will not change. Neither of us thinks we have done anything particularly wrong, and each of us thinks the other has blinkered moral judgment. It is an impasse.
Ah, so he was making threats in an order to force you to censor your posts? Mr. Libertarian, who supposedly sees free speech and 1st Amendment rights as a pinnacle of rational democracy was doing this?
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Re: Mike Parker is back from his 1 day break to smear Bill Reel

Post by drumdude »

Kish,

I encourage you to share the emails from DCP now that he has publicly doxxed you. The world deserves to know how the church’s top apologist behaves when he thinks no one is looking, in my opinion.
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