The hill Ramah was a major site in the final battles of the Jaredites. Moroni says that the hill Ramah “was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred” (Ether 15:11). In Mormon 6:2 this hill is identified as the “hill which was called Cumorah.”
So I guess the plates just teleported between hills, in DP’s Mesoamerican theory?
And then weren’t necessary at all because the translation process was just reading glowing words from a rock in a hat.
Do Mormons ever stop and actually think about how stupid all of this sounds?
At least the heartlanders acknowledge how ridiculous those two ideas are. Two hills cumorah and the rock in the hat undermine the entire Mormon origin story.
Looking for evidence in NY:
Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 14/2 (2005): 50–51 wrote:Landon Smith gives an account of artifact hunting in
the fields surrounding Hill Cumorah, near Palmyra,
New York. He presents evidence that the archaeology
of New York does not support the idea that Book of
Mormon peoples lived in that region of that New York’s
Hill Cumorah was the scene of the final battles between
the Nephites and Lamanites.
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... ntext=jbms
Because there appears to be no substantial evidence, at the hill in NY, of the mighty battles that took place at Cumorah, I would think that one of the first things to be done at a proposed site of a Cumorah would be to undertake a search for anything that showed that huge battles had taken place there.
There's a lot of 404s for the links on the Buckner web site - not generally a good sign - so I couldn't easily see what, if anything, they found in the way of artifacts.
The wikipedia article doesn't mention "artifacts", "arrow", "points", though Sorenson said that "weaponry" was one of 15 requirements of any proposed Cumorah site, and that Cerro Vigia meets all of his criteria.
Does the idea that a viable site must show evidence of weaponry still hold?
Nah. Surviving Lamanites would have taken weapons. And there are accounts of early European/American settlers of plowing up iron artifacts and melting them down. Arrowheads have also been discovered in the area. You can find evidence on line, just look for it.
Check out Wayne May’s discoveries, another Heartlander DCP & Peter Pan despise.
The Two Cumorah theory came from RLDS Church members because that Church created a hemispheric map with Zarahemla and Land of Nephi in South AmerIca, Central America as the narrow neck. Thus the actual Cumorah had to be in Mexico.
I’m hiding my sources, because I hear the Mopolopos steal other peoples stuff — like they stole from L.E. Hills without giving him the credit.
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... ntext=jbms
Because there appears to be no substantial evidence, at the hill in NY, of the mighty battles that took place at Cumorah, I would think that one of the first things to be done at a proposed site of a Cumorah would be to undertake a search for anything that showed that huge battles had taken place there.
There's a lot of 404s for the links on the Buckner web site - not generally a good sign - so I couldn't easily see what, if anything, they found in the way of artifacts.
The wikipedia article doesn't mention "artifacts", "arrow", "points", though Sorenson said that "weaponry" was one of 15 requirements of any proposed Cumorah site, and that Cerro Vigia meets all of his criteria.
Does the idea that a viable site must show evidence of weaponry still hold?
Nah. Surviving Lamanites would have taken weapons. And there are accounts of early European/American settlers of plowing up iron artifacts and melting them down. Arrowheads have also been discovered in the area. You can find evidence on line, just look for it.
Check out Wayne May’s discoveries, another Heartlander DCP & Peter Pan despise.
You're suggesting that the small number of survivors would have dug arrows out of the huge number of dead to the extent that virtually nothing was left to be found? I suppose it's possible. But is it probable?
The guy I quoted in my earlier comment was unable to find even small numbers of weapon fragments, or anyone who knew of such, at the NY site, but many arrow heads etc. have been found elsewhere, including places where there was no reason to think that hundreds of thousands had died in battle.
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Oliver Cowdery clearly stated the Hill Cumorah in New York was the location of the final Jaredite and Nephite battles. His letters were in response to the anti-book “Mormonism Unvailed” [sic] written by an excommunicated member of the Church.
Joseph Smith asked Cowdery to write up a history of the Restoration, since at the time Cowdery was the scribe and had the “gift of Aaron” as noted in the D&C. Joseph Smith was involved with that as noted by Cowdery in the introduction to the 1st letter. Joseph Smith later asked they be included in his personal history which is why they’re on the Joseph Smith Papers site. A portion is in the footnotes in JSH in the PGP. About the U&T used for the translation.
That’s a good point about a million people. Jonathan Neville pointed out that the Prophet Mormon could have been recalling the thousands killed up to the point of their extermination at Cumorah, which occurred at the numerous battles before Cumorah.
Thus the final battle would have had fewer people which took only a day for the numerous Lamanites to hewn them down.
Regarding the Jaredites, the text doesn’t say a million were destroyed at Ramah. It says a million were destroyed in numerous battles after Coriantumr was warned by the Prophet Ether that he would be the last.
Oliver Cowdery clearly stated the Hill Cumorah in New York was the location of the final Jaredite and Nephite battles. His letters were in response to the anti-book “Mormonism Unvailed” [sic] written by an excommunicated member of the Church.
Joseph Smith asked Cowdery to write up a history of the Restoration, since at the time Cowdery was the scribe and had the “gift of Aaron” as noted in the D&C. Joseph Smith was involved with that as noted by Cowdery in the introduction to the 1st letter. Joseph Smith later asked they be included in his personal history which is why they’re on the Joseph Smith Papers site. A portion is in the footnotes in JSH in the PGP. About the U&T used for the translation.
That’s a good point about a million people. Jonathan Neville pointed out that the Prophet Mormon could have been recalling the thousands killed up to the point of their extermination at Cumorah, which occurred at the numerous battles before Cumorah.
Thus the final battle would have had fewer people which took only a day for the numerous Lamanites to hewn them down.
Mormon 6:10–15
A quarter million on one side, however many on the other, plus encampments, livestock, probably supply train civilian and family deaths, and an order of magnitude higher dying due to disease - c’mon. There would’ve been a massive amount of nobles, soldiers, and civilians buried with their stuff, as was custom throughout most of human history.
We both know know if the Brighamite church, or its proxy in BYU, really believed there were archaeological evidence to be found at the NY Cumorah site it would’ve been combed over a thousand times.
- Doc
Last edited by Doctor CamNC4Me on Sun Apr 30, 2023 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
We both know know if the Brighamite church, or its proxy in BYU, really believed there were archaeological evidence to be found at the NY Cumorah site it would’ve combed over a thousand times.
- Doc
The Church has over a 100 billion dollars sitting in their rainy day account doing absolutely nothing but collecting dust. If those bastards really believed there was evidence within the hill they could fund the most expensive and expansive archeological dig ever performed by modern man. They could literally have the entire hill scooped up and removed to another location wherein millions of tons of soil could be meticulously sifted and processed in search of something, anything.
But the Church will not do that because when they find nothing it will destroy the faith of thousands if not millions of members still stuck in Mormonism.
The Two Cumorah theory came from RLDS Church members because that Church created a hemispheric map with Zarahemla and Land of Nephi in South AmerIca, Central America as the narrow neck. Thus the actual Cumorah had to be in Mexico.
I’m hiding my sources, because I hear the Mopolopos steal other peoples stuff — like they stole from L.E. Hills without giving him the credit.
Never trust a Mopolopo.
Two Cumorahfraud,
I don't believe you have explained why you think it matters which group of Book of Mormon fans first proposed which theory of location. If it Is simply a matter of proper attribution I can see how a complaint is possible but that would say nothing about which is the best understanding of the location of Book of Mormon people.
