In honor of Mormonism

[dastardly stem]

True. I will add I had a conversation with a self-proclaimed Rabbi recently. His take on this was, he escapes all these entailments because God did not know really what he was doing. And he also suggested he can't conceive of a God as Christians do--a brainless mind not encompassing space. On further inspection I couldn't really get why His god is not the source of evil, it kind of seemed like he thought He was...but he also wasn't sure what that'd mean.

Anyway, good point, Doctor.

Mormon transhumanists also excuse god by placing him as an evolved primate.

Yep. Evil stuff happens and is outside of God's ability to completely wipe out.

[Philo Sofee]

I would question whether negative theology or the limited God concept really gets anyone out of this mess. But, one thing is true...on Judaism, I have plenty to learn...so I'll take what I can get. Thanks.

You are very welcome. Sorry if I've derailed your thread.

When it comes to Judaism (of course, there are always exceptions), it doesn't tend to have the kind of dogmatic gatekeeping you see within Christianity. Incidentally (at least in my limited experience), Judaism seems to be much more open to things like critical Biblical scholarship as well.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints fundamentally cringe on the idea of critical biblical scholarship. When, if ever, have we ever even heard of an entire General Conference talk on the total grasp of the Logos theology in John 1, and its meaning and relation to the world, to mankind, and the salvation of the cosmos itself?

[Kishkumen]

If Mormonism were true many entailments of traditional Christianity must be false. let's consider:

4 Stages to debunk Christianity:

Stage 1. God is all-powerful and all-knowing. He is the only self-existing thing in all of existence, on Christian thought. He made everything, and is called the Creator. Before anything was made He knew that the only way evil would ever become something is if He created. And then He created. Thus, we can say with certainty, and must declare the entailment of Christian belief is God is the cause of all evil. Each evil can be traced back to God's act of creation...and He knew that would have to be. But it's worse.

God knew everything, even before creating. He knew, for instance, Cain would kill his brother, before Cain ever existed. You see, God made everything ex nihilo, on Christian thought--He created out of nothing. We humas must have a thought of evil before we commit evil. God must have thought of evil before anything besides Him ever was. And on Christian teaching we know it is sin, or evil to think of evil. If God were all-powerful and all-knowing He could have refrained from thinking of evil before creating. But He did not. He thought of it. He is the original one to conceive of evil. Thus, the entailment of Christian teaching is God is the most evil thing that ever could be. For he conceived of each evil, and played it out.

Stage 2: God created heaven and hell. Thus, before creating anything God conceived of a place, called hell, that would house evil and suffering for eternity. That means evil and suffering would play out to an infinite extent. There simply could not be more evil added to infinite evil and be said to add to the amount of evil. Thus, the entailment of Christain thought is God made the worst possible world...out of nothing.

Stage 3: yes, again God created heaven and hell. But heaven becomes a second hell, on Christian teaching. It must. Heaven is place where God will be worshipped for eternity. But, as Stages 1 and 2 point out, God is evil. So, the worshipping is directed at the one who epitomizes all evil. Which is just hell, by definition. But it gets worse. If one is saved, one must worship for eternity the all-powerful one who caused all evil, true...but must do so knowing others are suffering the most ridiculous and most terrible type of suffering imaginable...for eternity. So any decent person who is saved will necessarily suffer eternally by mourning for those who suffer eternally. Thus, on Christian teaching, heaven is simply second hell. It might not be as bad, but for decent people it is probably even worse.

Stage 4: God sent His divine Son to earth to accomplish salvation for some people. God, according to Christian thought, emblazoned on human history messages from this divine Son to humanity in the New Testament. Thus, one would think God, if he were good (impossible on Christain thought, as previously demonstrated), would provide wise words that people should cherish. Instead we get a pile of mixed messages that can only suggest God intended to confuse and not inspire. The greatest example of a mixed message I can think of, and anyone can offer a competing alternative if they want, is put in the mouth of God's Son--Hate your family and yourself, as a requirement, and love your enemies as yourself. There are tons of other mixed messages put out by Jesus in HIs supposed own words. And, as a truth, there are even far more mixed messages that come from the Bible as a whole, which on Christian thought, is God's word. If God is good, the Bible can't possibly be from Him. If God is bad or evil, then the Bible makes sense. God is already proven to be evil on Christian thought, thus the Bible makes sense as coming from that evil one.

Almost everything written here is, at its core, deeply heretical. Unfortunately, it is the distorted version of Christianity most Americans ascribe to.

[mcjathan]

Almost everything written here is, at its core, deeply heretical. Unfortunately, it is the distorted version of Christianity most Americans ascribe to.

Kish, would you please elaborate?

[drumdude]

Mormon transhumanists also excuse god by placing him as an evolved primate.

Yep. Evil stuff happens and is outside of God's ability to completely wipe out.

Really makes me doubt the ability for Mormon God to keep everyone alive forever if he isn’t the creator God of Christianity.

He sounds like a snake oil salesman just like Joe Smith.

[dastardly stem]

Almost everything written here is, at its core, deeply heretical.

To Mormonism? yes. To Christianity as most in our world/environment describe Christianity? I don't think so.

Unfortunately, it is the distorted version of Christianity most Americans ascribe to.

most Americans? Or most Christians? or both? I'd think both.

[dastardly stem]

Really makes me doubt the ability for Mormon God to keep everyone alive forever if he isn’t the creator God of Christianity.

He sounds like a snake oil salesman just like Joe Smith.

In Mormonism God doesn't have to keep anything alive, as does the God of most other Christians.

[drumdude]

Really makes me doubt the ability for Mormon God to keep everyone alive forever if he isn’t the creator God of Christianity.

He sounds like a snake oil salesman just like Joe Smith.

In Mormonism God doesn't have to keep anything alive, as does the God of most other Christians.

The God of Mormonism lives in the same Universe we do. Subject to the same heat death of the Universe, if that is how it ends.

The God of Christianity created the Universe and exists independently of it. Heaven might not even be in the same Universe, as it is within Mormonism.

[dastardly stem]

In Mormonism God doesn't have to keep anything alive, as does the God of most other Christians.

The God of Mormonism lives in the same Universe we do. Subject to the same heat death of the Universe, if that is how it ends.

The God of Christianity created the Universe and exists independently of it. Heaven might not even be in the same Universe, as it is within Mormonism.

Mormonism can swing either way--God could be but a subject of this universe, or could have come from outside it.

[Kishkumen]

To Mormonism? yes. To Christianity as most in our world/environment describe Christianity? I don't think so.

I am not concerned about Mormonism but Christianity. And what the majority believes because they have been taught poorly by bad teachers does not concern me. Hell is a late invention. There is no hell as such. Universal salvation is probably the ancient orthodox future of all humankind.