In honor of Mormonism

[dastardly stem]

But what is the alternative view of God? I guess i don't know what that would be.

Stem, I was not chasing some strange new picture. I think God faces genuine limitations in interaction with creation. I cannot analyze these in any detail not being Gods supervisor. I believe God is creator, source of life and order. In love he aims for a better future. I can say that God is omnipotent meaning God is the source of all power that exists but may not have power to do every imaginable thing. A cause and effect universe with agents making choices entails conflicts.Traditional conservative Christian thought refers to this as a fallen world where in things are happening which God tolerates looking towards a better future. I think the resistance runs deeper than a first man's sin but the story is a pointer. The alternative is no life at all so best make the best of the difficult life we have.

I think this is fundamentally the God of all religions though many,particularly past, religions have focused upon stories and interactions of intermediary, or multiple gods. In a sense LDS view an intermediary, one who ariveded at godhood,as the person we actually deal with.

I agree the LDS view of God makes more sense. Not in that it makes good sense...but it's at least coherent, as it is. But I'm not following what you are accusing me of...What was it about the things I said that painted the traditional view of God wrong? Are you saying the entailments I describe are not what people perceive as being God? If so, I agree. But, I can't help the entailments. Those just are a result of the beliefs of all-knowing, all-powerful, and creator-out-of-nothing.

[huckelberry]

Stem, I was not chasing some strange new picture. I think God faces genuine limitations in interaction with creation. I cannot analyze these in any detail not being Gods supervisor. I believe God is creator, source of life and order. In love he aims for a better future. I can say that God is omnipotent meaning God is the source of all power that exists but may not have power to do every imaginable thing. A cause and effect universe with agents making choices entails conflicts.Traditional conservative Christian thought refers to this as a fallen world where in things are happening which God tolerates looking towards a better future. I think the resistance runs deeper than a first man's sin but the story is a pointer. The alternative is no life at all so best make the best of the difficult life we have.

I think this is fundamentally the God of all religions though many,particularly past, religions have focused upon stories and interactions of intermediary, or multiple gods. In a sense LDS view an intermediary, one who ariveded at godhood,as the person we actually deal with.

I agree the LDS view of God makes more sense. Not in that it makes good sense...but it's at least coherent, as it is. But I'm not following what you are accusing me of...What was it about the things I said that painted the traditional view of God wrong? Are you saying the entailments I describe are not what people perceive as being God? If so, I agree. But, I can't help the entailments. Those just are a result of the beliefs of all-knowing, all-powerful, and creator-out-of-nothing.

Stem, I was unaware of either accusing you of something or myself agreeing with LDS view of God.

I think your entailments result from leaving some important things out so I mentioned some considerations.

[dastardly stem]

Stem, I was unaware of either accusing you of something or myself agreeing with LDS view of God.

I think your entailments result from leaving some important things out so I mentioned some considerations.

Ok. I'm not sure what I left out, even after considering your comments. But it sounds to me like we've hit a point wherein you do not want to continue. If so, all my best, huckelberry.

[huckelberry]

Let's consider it more. If God existed before anything else, then all that became, if he knows all and is all powerful, is a result of what He planned, or imagined. Along with the explanation I started with, we can say He had to have planned for a Satan, for instance. But the Satan couldn't have been the most evil of all things if God did not first imagine there to be a most evil of all things. It must be that God imagined the evil that was satan before Satan ever was. And everything that is Satan can only be if God first imagined that's what he would be. But that goes for all evil. ........

But this is just that nasty problem of evil, put another way.

P1. If an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god exists, then evil does not.

P2. There is evil in the world.

C1. Therefore, an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god does not exist.

If God is all powerful, knowing, and benevolent, it could be that God imagined creating thingies without evil. He could have created us and sent us to a world, with some knowledge that He exists, for starters. He could have clearly told us that its best to be good. ...

HI Stem, I may not be in a big rush to this discussion but I am not against picking it up from time to time.

I had some uncertainty on where to start with your post here so selected out only a portion to think about. I started thinking perhaps this part was a key to how you are thinking and how I think quite differently on the question.

I do not see any reason to think of Satan as the most evil or the essence of evil. I do not think there is any reason for God to create such a Satan. Satan was created good. He had intelligence curiosity ambition and beauty.He had both an artistic and scientific mind. I am glad that humans have those qualities as well. They are what make us, and there rest of the mammals more interesting than bacteria which are immune to doing wrong.

The very strengths, good things, Satan has are also the ways Satan was capable of turning from good. That works for people as well. I do not believe the garden of Eden story is literal history but it is representative history of how humans are entangled in evil. Our curiosity, eagerness for life, creative aspirations enable us to create temptations for ourselves.

[Kishkumen]

The very strengths, good things, Satan has are also the ways Satan was capable of turning from good. That works for people as well. I do not believe the garden of Eden story is literal history but it is representative history of how humans are entangled in evil. Our curiosity, eagerness for life, creative aspirations enable us to create temptations for ourselves.

I would go a step further and say that the myths of Satan are about the human capacity for evil.

[dastardly stem]

HI Stem, I may not be in a big rush to this discussion but I am not against picking it up from time to time.

I had some uncertainty on where to start with your post here so selected out only a portion to think about. I started thinking perhaps this part was a key to how you are thinking and how I think quite differently on the question.

I do not see any reason to think of Satan as the most evil or the essence of evil. I do not think there is any reason for God to create such a Satan. Satan was created good. He had intelligence curiosity ambition and beauty.He had both an artistic and scientific mind. I am glad that humans have those qualities as well. They are what make us, and there rest of the mammals more interesting than bacteria which are immune to doing wrong.

So god created humans and other things that are like people but aren’t people?

This sounds like god didn’t know what he was doing…or didn’t have a plan. If god didn’t conceive of satan before he created him out of nothing then he didn’t realize, apparently he needed a serpent in the garden, even metaphorically.

Also I’m not seeing how this is responsive to my point. If god thought of evil happening before he created and knew evil things could happen if he created then he caused evil by creating things. And evil things happen when boy because he conceived of it. That is if god didn’t conceive of evil as a result of his creation then there’d be no evil.

The very strengths, good things, Satan has are also the ways Satan was capable of turning from good. That works for people as well. I do not believe the garden of Eden story is literal history but it is representative history of how humans are entangled in evil. Our curiosity, eagerness for life, creative aspirations enable us to create temptations for ourselves.

That last libe works, in reality sure. But we certainly don’t need a god for it. It’s probably a good thing to not take stories in the Bible literally. So I encourage that.

[dastardly stem]

The very strengths, good things, Satan has are also the ways Satan was capable of turning from good. That works for people as well. I do not believe the garden of Eden story is literal history but it is representative history of how humans are entangled in evil. Our curiosity, eagerness for life, creative aspirations enable us to create temptations for ourselves.

I would go a step further and say that the myths of Satan are about the human capacity for evil.

Which is lesser than the god capacity for evil, I guess

[huckelberry]

I do not see any reason to think of Satan as the most evil or the essence of evil. I do not think there is any reason for God to create such a Satan. Satan was created good. He had intelligence curiosity ambition and beauty.He had both an artistic and scientific mind. I am glad that humans have those qualities as well. They are what make us, and there rest of the mammals more interesting than bacteria which are immune to doing wrong.

So god created humans and other things that are like people but aren’t people?

This sounds like god didn’t know what he was doing…or didn’t have a plan. If god didn’t conceive of satan before he created him out of nothing then he didn’t realize, apparently he needed a serpent in the garden, even metaphorically.

Also I’m not seeing how this is responsive to my point. If god thought of evil happening before he created and knew evil things could happen if he created then he caused evil by creating things. And evil things happen when boy because he conceived of it. That is if god didn’t conceive of evil as a result of his creation then there’d be no evil.

The very strengths, good things, Satan has are also the ways Satan was capable of turning from good. That works for people as well. I do not believe the garden of Eden story is literal history but it is representative history of how humans are entangled in evil. Our curiosity, eagerness for life, creative aspirations enable us to create temptations for ourselves.

That last libe works, in reality sure. But we certainly don’t need a god for it. It’s probably a good thing to not take stories in the Bible literally. So I encourage that.

Hi Stem, I can see one statement here which I can understand as true. If God did not create there would be no people doing anything bad,(or good ,or indifferent for that matter). That is certainly a logical statement. Your statement ,"if god didn't conceive of evil as a result of his creation there'd be no evil" is a baseless speculation to my mind, a sort of imaginary, what if, sort of story plot.

I mentioned that there are other creatures capable of thought and decisions such as coyotes. I do not know why that suggested to you that god did not have a plan. Why would god need a serpent in the garden? I thought it fairly clear that what was operative in the snake is operative in us.Perhaps you imagine that unless god invented evil people would be behaving better than saints.I am unable to see that as realistic.

[dastardly stem]

Hi Stem, I can see one statement here which I can understand as true. If God did not create there would be no people doing anything bad,(or good ,or indifferent for that matter). That is certainly a logical statement. Your statement ,"if god didn't conceive of evil as a result of his creation there'd be no evil" is a baseless speculation to my mind, a sort of imaginary, what if, sort of story plot.

I mentioned that there are other creatures capable of thought and decisions such as coyotes. I do not know why that suggested to you that god did not have a plan. Why would god need a serpent in the garden? I thought it fairly clear that what was operative in the snake is operative in us.Perhaps you imagine that unless god invented evil people would be behaving better than saints.I am unable to see that as realistic.

Before creating did God know evil things would play out as a result of creating?

Or

Before creating did God not know evil things would play out as a result of creating?

[malkie]

Hi Stem, I can see one statement here which I can understand as true. If God did not create there would be no people doing anything bad,(or good ,or indifferent for that matter). That is certainly a logical statement. Your statement ,"if god didn't conceive of evil as a result of his creation there'd be no evil" is a baseless speculation to my mind, a sort of imaginary, what if, sort of story plot.

I mentioned that there are other creatures capable of thought and decisions such as coyotes. I do not know why that suggested to you that god did not have a plan. Why would god need a serpent in the garden? I thought it fairly clear that what was operative in the snake is operative in us.Perhaps you imagine that unless god invented evil people would be behaving better than saints.I am unable to see that as realistic.

Before creating did God know evil things would play out as a result of creating?

Or

Before creating did God not know evil things would play out as a result of creating?

Or did he not know, but only suspected that evil things would play out as a result of creating, and went ahead anyway?