Another Bishop Behaving Badly

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Gadianton
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

Post by Gadianton »

Salvete wrote:Now, sure, if the Mormons were committing mass suicide or poisoning Kool-aid that would be different.
And so we couldn't say anything bad about Heaven's Gate until it was too late, and the mass suicide happened? After everyone is dead, then we can call it a cult?

Look, Salvete, I don't want to derail the Reverend's thread and get too deep into what a cult is, I had a thread for that, you didn't participate, you just told me I was wrong without responding to anything I had actually written. I'm happy to answer your questions more generally there or start another thread.

Specifically, in regard to the Reverend's post, think of a cult as an abusive partner. Indeed, as he notes, the institution is broken from an outside perspective, but it isn't necessarily broken according to it's own agenda. You can get an abusive partner in legal trouble, just as you can put legal pressure on a cult, but at the end of the day, my question is, what do you expect from a cult in terms of actual reform?

An abusive partner may never reform, but simply become more passive aggressive. JohnW sounds like he was a good bishop. But from an institutional perspective, he's the good cop. A "good cop" in "good cop / bad cop" isn't your friend. Joanna's daughter could have gotten a "good cop" bishop for the interview, but it wouldn't have changed anything in regard to the church's claim that it's the only true Church on the face of the earth and all other paths may have some good in them but do not have the complete truth.

Don't confuse any relativism that seems seems present in the Church's marketing pitch with actual relativism. Cults may learn to be diplomatic, but a diplomatic partner isn't necessarily a loving partner.
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

Post by Kishkumen »

Gadianton wrote:
Sat May 13, 2023 7:52 pm
The problem isn't "Jewish" but precisely as mom said, "knowing God in two languages." That's the problem. The Bishop's retort was awkward but it likely wasn't meant to be anti-Semitic. There are not "two languages"; there is one language, and cultists have a keen ear for pure speaking in the mother tongue. Let me ask you this, Reverend, were there two languages in the beginning, or only Adamic? Multiple languages originated at the tower of Babel. "Knowing God in two languages" is simply, not a thing. It's not possible.

Let's steel-man the Bishop's response for the sake of argument. It's very possible, that liberal Mormons find subtle ways to push their agenda. The Bishop is on his guard, knowing Joanna is influential among the opposition. The name of the game is to get the other side to cross the line. How both sides can have a mutually understood set of rules might be interesting, but it appears this is quite common even for fierce enemies. A daughter known to be indoctrinated with the heresy of pluralism is a challenge -- the bishop is in a fork. If he quickly signs off on the recommend without objection, he's giving a free pass to pluralism. I'm assuming the daughter goes to a synagogue or somehow participates in her father's faith and that was public knowledge prior to the interview. But if he objects, he's bullying a child and bonus points for disparaging Judaism.

Joana knows that she's in a cult that worships extraterrestrials. She knows what a bishops interview is and she knows how flexible the minds of typical bishops are when it comes to protecting the reptilian overlords. She knows the bishop knows that she's a proud liberal believer and pluralist and that her daughter is an example of pluralism winning. She must know that the Bishop is in a fork, and I have to believe there is a strong possibility that she was open to scoring a point. Certainly, she did score the point, and she cashed in on it. Certainly, the Bishop looks really bad. But, I have to point out, that the daughter being bright enough to be fluent in two religions, I mean, if she's able to step back and look at religion that objectively, then she's certainly ready for a talk about cults, and about the inability of a Bishop to accept anything about the world not black and white.

On the combative side, she could have warned her daughter that the Church leaders are intolerant, and that she's going to have to be strong and endure abuse if she's going to remain active in the Mormon church. Else; don't go to interviews. Would you send your kids to get interviewed by a man sworn to protect the secret agenda of their extra-planetary Reptilian overlords? On the charitable side, she could have explained to her daughter that most Mormons can't understand pluralism, that their brains literally aren't wired for it, and to be patient. Cultists are absolutely going to cross the line, and so be understanding and forgiving, if the goal is to help get them out of the cave.
I wasn’t accusing him of being anti-Semitic. I was accusing him of being an obnoxious moron. I should think that a decent person wouldn’t try to place a wedge between a twelve-year-old girl and her dad.
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

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Kishkumen wrote:I should think that a decent person wouldn’t try to place a wedge between a twelve-year-old girl and her dad.
What do you think his motive was? Why would he try to put a wedge? Suppose he were anti-Semitic, that could definitely explain it. There are other many other options though; maybe he's just a sadistic jerk.

Granting he's a jerk, it's still important to understand where he's coming from. If the institution is to reform, we need to know what's breaking it. Is the church just bad at filtering out crude people who display random character flaws that hurt the members or does the church somehow encourage fanatical leadership? There are many other options, of course, but suppose these were the two main options, the fix would be different in each case.

What do you think motivated the Bishop? Did Joanna talk about why she thinks the bishop behaved that way?
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

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the most offensive part is Joanna thinks it's good to indoctrinate her child into thinking there's a God.

Just kidding.

That is an appalling story. I like to pile on Bishop's too because I have my own stories. And why anyone thinks some dude untrained in nearly everything associated with personal worthiness interviews with kids ought to be sitting in a room alone with a child talking about some of these things is beyond me. But, I do prefer to hear two sides of a story. As John W pointed out any one person could simply have misunderstood or lied about what took place. I'm not feeling defensive about it...I'd just say, this too is part of the problem with these interviews. one-on-one can lead to plenty of misunderstandings. It's a risk the Church deems necessary, I suppose. If so, the Church should happily take these types of stories on the chin. There's no way to contest it now. It feels like a weird smoke screen to say it's possible the Bishop didn't say that...or the girl was mistaken...or something of the sort.
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

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Gadianton wrote:
Sun May 14, 2023 11:41 pm
What do you think his motive was? Why would he try to put a wedge? Suppose he were anti-Semitic, that could definitely explain it. There are other many other options though; maybe he's just a sadistic jerk.

Granting he's a jerk, it's still important to understand where he's coming from. If the institution is to reform, we need to know what's breaking it. Is the church just bad at filtering out crude people who display random character flaws that hurt the members or does the church somehow encourage fanatical leadership? There are many other options, of course, but suppose these were the two main options, the fix would be different in each case.

What do you think motivated the Bishop? Did Joanna talk about why she thinks the bishop behaved that way?
I think that bishops are given a frightening amount of latitude in what they do and almost no real training.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

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Kishkumen wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 3:57 pm
Gadianton wrote:
Sun May 14, 2023 11:41 pm
What do you think his motive was? Why would he try to put a wedge? Suppose he were anti-Semitic, that could definitely explain it. There are other many other options though; maybe he's just a sadistic jerk.

Granting he's a jerk, it's still important to understand where he's coming from. If the institution is to reform, we need to know what's breaking it. Is the church just bad at filtering out crude people who display random character flaws that hurt the members or does the church somehow encourage fanatical leadership? There are many other options, of course, but suppose these were the two main options, the fix would be different in each case.

What do you think motivated the Bishop? Did Joanna talk about why she thinks the bishop behaved that way?
I think that bishops are given a frightening amount of latitude in what they do and almost no real training.
+1

The need for a professionalized clergy within Mormondom is very apparent. I suppose the question is, what would that look like? You can train people to be truly helpful to the congregation or you can train people to be loyal to the corporation. I suspect any trained Mormon Bishop would be fixated on the health of the corporation rather than the mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual health of the layperson.

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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

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Kishkumen wrote:
Sun May 14, 2023 11:57 am
JohnW wrote:
Sun May 14, 2023 7:33 am
I'm pretty sure I read that same article. It is interesting to see things from other's perspectives. Although, I have a hard time when these sorts of conversations from bishop's interviews come out for us to discuss in the public square. Yes, there are bishops that aren't the most tactful. There are even some that are outright criminal. Having said that, I will say that there are also times when people completely misunderstand what bishops say or intend to say. I had times when people would come to talk about something I said that was hurtful to them. Most times it turned out it was just a complete misunderstanding: either I hadn't said what they thought, or I didn't intend anything remotely close to their interpretation. Unfortunately, there are also times when I said things that were just plain dumb or insensitive. Apologies were in order, which never completely heal the situation.

I used to be quick to judge what bishops said to people. After being a bishop, I have a really hard time judging bishops. It is a difficult job. They are asked to do a whole bunch of consequential things and are often watched like a hawk by some members in the ward. I don't think it is terribly useful to have these public discourses of what a particular bishop said and did.
That’s one more place where we disagree. The purpose in discussing these items is very clear: to show how poorly the institution functions. And in my experience it functions pretty poorly. If *you* do/did a conscientious job of being a bishop, I commend you for that. That does not mean the institution as such is a good one.
Yeah, that may be a valid reason to discuss these things in public, but we don't often get a fair discussion. I find that the bad things get discussed and the good things tend to be left out. For example, in the article, both individuals talked about how they had great church leaders for much of their time actively attending. They don't go into detail about those good experiences. The only story we get is the bad story.

In reality, I think I understand where you're coming from, Kishkumen. I really don't expect people here to stop discussing things like this. In fact, if we as a church never discuss this sort of thing, we run the risk of hiding the really bad apples. I personally would prefer that we err on the side of a little too open. I guess I was just in a lamenting mood when I posted my initial response.
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

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dastardly stem wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 2:01 pm
the most offensive part is Joanna thinks it's good to indoctrinate her child into thinking there's a God.

Just kidding.

That is an appalling story. I like to pile on Bishop's too because I have my own stories. And why anyone thinks some dude untrained in nearly everything associated with personal worthiness interviews with kids ought to be sitting in a room alone with a child talking about some of these things is beyond me. But, I do prefer to hear two sides of a story. As John W pointed out any one person could simply have misunderstood or lied about what took place. I'm not feeling defensive about it...I'd just say, this too is part of the problem with these interviews. one-on-one can lead to plenty of misunderstandings. It's a risk the Church deems necessary, I suppose. If so, the Church should happily take these types of stories on the chin. There's no way to contest it now. It feels like a weird smoke screen to say it's possible the Bishop didn't say that...or the girl was mistaken...or something of the sort.
I do agree that allowing (and even encouraging) parents to be in on interviews with the bishop is generally a good idea. This change in policy came out while I was bishop. I had been already doing that for years with some of the youth whose parents had requested to be present, but this policy change validated that sentiment. It is interesting to note that quite a few parents prefer to not be in the same room with their child. They are concerned that the child will not be completely open with the bishop if a parent is present. I have also seen this effect. Some kids really don't want a parent there if they are unloading. In rare cases, a parent is sometimes part of the problem. Ultimately, there isn't always a one-size-fits-all answer.
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

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Kishkumen wrote: think that bishops are given a frightening amount of latitude in what they do and almost no real training.
You seem to assume that somebody in the Church would know how to train them in a way that would make liberal-minded people happy or even want to train them in such a way.

Training might work if the Church extended its reliance on consultants and brought in a third party with no affiliation to Mormonism to train bishops with programs used in the corporate world for managers. I suppose it wouldn't be too much of a stretch given the missionary program is built on sales-training materials from the outside.

Hmm. Come to think of it, it might actually work to a degree. It could put out some fires, but ultimately I think it would make power abuse more passive aggressive. The sell to the leadership would be that ultimately, such a program is built to navigate political correctness while at the same time ensuring the interests of the corporate entity.
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

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JohnW wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 1:46 am
Kishkumen wrote:
Sun May 14, 2023 11:57 am


That’s one more place where we disagree. The purpose in discussing these items is very clear: to show how poorly the institution functions. And in my experience it functions pretty poorly. If *you* do/did a conscientious job of being a bishop, I commend you for that. That does not mean the institution as such is a good one.
Yeah, that may be a valid reason to discuss these things in public, but we don't often get a fair discussion. I find that the bad things get discussed and the good things tend to be left out. For example, in the article, both individuals talked about how they had great church leaders for much of their time actively attending. They don't go into detail about those good experiences. The only story we get is the bad story.

In reality, I think I understand where you're coming from, Kishkumen. I really don't expect people here to stop discussing things like this. In fact, if we as a church never discuss this sort of thing, we run the risk of hiding the really bad apples. I personally would prefer that we err on the side of a little too open. I guess I was just in a lamenting mood when I posted my initial response.
Whether there is a "fair" discussion depends on a lot of factors, including where the discussion takes place, and what you consider to be fair. in my opinion, religions may have somewhat more freedom in western society than is justified, and in some countries the larger religious organizations are in the business of abusing minorities and attempting to deny them their rights. I count CoJCoLDS as being in that group, and as deserving a lot of the criticism that they get.

There is another Mormon discussion board where you may feel that, for your taste, discussions are more fair towards the church - to the extent that direct criticism of the church or of the senior leaders may result in the critic being banned. On this forum we are not prevented from posting links to that one - and you have probably seen it done. On the other forum it may be a hanging offence to post a link to this one.

You will perhaps notice that bloggers like Prof. Peterson regularly denigrate this discussion group, but (almost) never supply links so that their readers can see for themselves if the bloggers' statements are true, whereas posters here often include links to Peterson's blog. The vast majority of reasonably faithful members would never come to a forum like this, even if they knew how to find it. In your opinion, is it fair that this forum is demonised by LDS apologists?

One of the good features of this board we are participating in is that outright censorship is rare, and differing rules in the different fora means that anyone can participate in a forum that allows only the degree of disagreement that they are willing to put up with.

I think you can be sure, however, that any statement put out by the church is unlikely to be 'fair' in the most common sense of the word, and will likely be quite severely criticised here. Independent media may also be quite critical of the church, just as they may be quite critical of other religions, and other philosophies.
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