Another Bishop Behaving Badly

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Kishkumen
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Another Bishop Behaving Badly

Post by Kishkumen »

I am reading about Joanna Brooks’ experience as a public figure during the “Mormon moment.” It is an eye-opening interview. Brooks recalls Elder Oaks telling a congregation she was “wrong about women and the priesthood.” Then there was this gem, which is, frankly, jaw-droppingly incredible and disgusting:
But a few years later we did have a bishop who took out some resentment on my then 12-year-old daughter during a temple recommend interview — she wanted to do baptisms for the dead. He put her on the spot from the beginning. Then he got to the point in the temple recommend interview where he asked her if she was affiliated with any groups opposed to the church. And she said no; I mean, this child is 12! And he said, “Well, that’s not true because your dad’s Jewish. And we all know that Jews are opposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ.” And she looked at him and explained that no, they’re not opposed. My child’s an expert in how to know God in two languages.
I don’t miss a lay clergy staffed by more than its fair share of ignorant, bigoted morons.

See: https://religionnews.com/2023/05/12/the ... ublic-eye/
Last edited by Kishkumen on Mon May 15, 2023 4:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

Post by drumdude »

It never ceases to amaze me how many Christians are taken in by the “Christ-killer Jews” idea. The epitome of which was Mel Gibson’s Passion of the Christ torture porn.

I guess it stems from extreme black and white thinking, which most religious teachings are quite happy to promote. How often do Mormons teach “love apostates” and how often do they teach “fear apostates?”

We saw just a couple weeks ago at that BYU devotional that Satan controls all of the media, the Democratic Party, progressives, basically anyone who isn’t a conservative fundamentalist Mormon. Anti-Semitism fits right into that narrative, even if the church doesn’t explicitly teach it. After all, don’t the Jews control all the media?
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

Post by Philo Sofee »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat May 13, 2023 6:40 pm
I am reading about Joanna Brooks’ experience as a public figure during the “Mormon moment.” It is an eye-opening interview. Books recalls Elder Oaks telling a congregation she was “wrong about women and the priesthood.” Then there was this gem, which is, frankly, jaw-droppingly incredible and disgusting:
But a few years later we did have a bishop who took out some resentment on my then 12-year-old daughter during a temple recommend interview — she wanted to do baptisms for the dead. He put her on the spot from the beginning. Then he got to the point in the temple recommend interview where he asked her if she was affiliated with any groups opposed to the church. And she said no; I mean, this child is 12! And he said, “Well, that’s not true because your dad’s Jewish. And we all know that Jews are opposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ.” And she looked at him and explained that no, they’re not opposed. My child’s an expert in how to know God in two languages.
I don’t miss a lay clergy staffed by more than its fair share of ignorant, bigoted morons.
That is simply insane.
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

Post by Gadianton »

The problem isn't "Jewish" but precisely as mom said, "knowing God in two languages." That's the problem. The Bishop's retort was awkward but it likely wasn't meant to be anti-Semitic. There are not "two languages"; there is one language, and cultists have a keen ear for pure speaking in the mother tongue. Let me ask you this, Reverend, were there two languages in the beginning, or only Adamic? Multiple languages originated at the tower of Babel. "Knowing God in two languages" is simply, not a thing. It's not possible.

Let's steel-man the Bishop's response for the sake of argument. It's very possible, that liberal Mormons find subtle ways to push their agenda. The Bishop is on his guard, knowing Joanna is influential among the opposition. The name of the game is to get the other side to cross the line. How both sides can have a mutually understood set of rules might be interesting, but it appears this is quite common even for fierce enemies. A daughter known to be indoctrinated with the heresy of pluralism is a challenge -- the bishop is in a fork. If he quickly signs off on the recommend without objection, he's giving a free pass to pluralism. I'm assuming the daughter goes to a synagogue or somehow participates in her father's faith and that was public knowledge prior to the interview. But if he objects, he's bullying a child and bonus points for disparaging Judaism.

Joana knows that she's in a cult that worships extraterrestrials. She knows what a bishops interview is and she knows how flexible the minds of typical bishops are when it comes to protecting the reptilian overlords. She knows the bishop knows that she's a proud liberal believer and pluralist and that her daughter is an example of pluralism winning. She must know that the Bishop is in a fork, and I have to believe there is a strong possibility that she was open to scoring a point. Certainly, she did score the point, and she cashed in on it. Certainly, the Bishop looks really bad. But, I have to point out, that the daughter being bright enough to be fluent in two religions, I mean, if she's able to step back and look at religion that objectively, then she's certainly ready for a talk about cults, and about the inability of a Bishop to accept anything about the world not black and white.

On the combative side, she could have warned her daughter that the Church leaders are intolerant, and that she's going to have to be strong and endure abuse if she's going to remain active in the Mormon church. Else; don't go to interviews. Would you send your kids to get interviewed by a man sworn to protect the secret agenda of their extra-planetary Reptilian overlords? On the charitable side, she could have explained to her daughter that most Mormons can't understand pluralism, that their brains literally aren't wired for it, and to be patient. Cultists are absolutely going to cross the line, and so be understanding and forgiving, if the goal is to help get them out of the cave.
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

Post by Salvete »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat May 13, 2023 6:40 pm
I am reading about Joanna Brooks’ experience as a public figure during the “Mormon moment.” It is an eye-opening interview. Brooks recalls Elder Oaks telling a congregation she was “wrong about women and the priesthood.” Then there was this gem, which is, frankly, jaw-droppingly incredible and disgusting:
But a few years later we did have a bishop who took out some resentment on my then 12-year-old daughter during a temple recommend interview — she wanted to do baptisms for the dead. He put her on the spot from the beginning. Then he got to the point in the temple recommend interview where he asked her if she was affiliated with any groups opposed to the church. And she said no; I mean, this child is 12! And he said, “Well, that’s not true because your dad’s Jewish. And we all know that Jews are opposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ.” And she looked at him and explained that no, they’re not opposed. My child’s an expert in how to know God in two languages.
I don’t miss a lay clergy staffed by more than its fair share of ignorant, bigoted morons.
What a horrible thing to say (the bishop, not you).
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Salvete
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

Post by Salvete »

Gadianton wrote:
Sat May 13, 2023 7:52 pm
…cultists…
You’ve really been on this “cult” kick. Why?

Are you okay?

I don’t agree that the LDS Church is a cult (very few things are).

I’m sincerely curious: Have you found a definition of that word that is universally accepted? Because I’ve usually seen it used as “some people are doing some stuff I don’t like!”

Now, sure, if the Mormons were committing mass suicide or poisoning Kool-aid that would be different.
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drumdude
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

Post by drumdude »

Salvete wrote:
Sun May 14, 2023 4:25 am
Have you found a definition of that word that is universally accepted?
Since you disagree with him, by definition, it's unlikely to be universally accepted...

The inverse of your argument is “I’m a member of that group and/or I like it so it can’t possibly be a cult.”
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

Post by Marcus »

Salvete wrote:
Sun May 14, 2023 4:25 am
Gadianton wrote:
Sat May 13, 2023 7:52 pm
…cultists…
You’ve really been on this “cult” kick. Why?

Are you okay?

I don’t agree that the LDS Church is a cult (very few things are).

I’m sincerely curious: Have you found a definition of that word that is universally accepted? Because I’ve usually seen it used as “some people are doing some stuff I don’t like!”

Now, sure, if the Mormons were committing mass suicide or poisoning Kool-aid that would be different.

Salvete, are you okay?
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

Post by JohnW »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat May 13, 2023 6:40 pm
I am reading about Joanna Brooks’ experience as a public figure during the “Mormon moment.” It is an eye-opening interview. Brooks recalls Elder Oaks telling a congregation she was “wrong about women and the priesthood.” Then there was this gem, which is, frankly, jaw-droppingly incredible and disgusting:
But a few years later we did have a bishop who took out some resentment on my then 12-year-old daughter during a temple recommend interview — she wanted to do baptisms for the dead. He put her on the spot from the beginning. Then he got to the point in the temple recommend interview where he asked her if she was affiliated with any groups opposed to the church. And she said no; I mean, this child is 12! And he said, “Well, that’s not true because your dad’s Jewish. And we all know that Jews are opposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ.” And she looked at him and explained that no, they’re not opposed. My child’s an expert in how to know God in two languages.
I don’t miss a lay clergy staffed by more than its fair share of ignorant, bigoted morons.
I'm pretty sure I read that same article. It is interesting to see things from other's perspectives. Although, I have a hard time when these sorts of conversations from bishop's interviews come out for us to discuss in the public square. Yes, there are bishops that aren't the most tactful. There are even some that are outright criminal. Having said that, I will say that there are also times when people completely misunderstand what bishops say or intend to say. I had times when people would come to talk about something I said that was hurtful to them. Most times it turned out it was just a complete misunderstanding: either I hadn't said what they thought, or I didn't intend anything remotely close to their interpretation. Unfortunately, there are also times when I said things that were just plain dumb or insensitive. Apologies were in order, which never completely heal the situation.

I used to be quick to judge what bishops said to people. After being a bishop, I have a really hard time judging bishops. It is a difficult job. They are asked to do a whole bunch of consequential things and are often watched like a hawk by some members in the ward. I don't think it is terribly useful to have these public discourses of what a particular bishop said and did.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Another Bishop Behaving Badly

Post by Kishkumen »

JohnW wrote:
Sun May 14, 2023 7:33 am
I'm pretty sure I read that same article. It is interesting to see things from other's perspectives. Although, I have a hard time when these sorts of conversations from bishop's interviews come out for us to discuss in the public square. Yes, there are bishops that aren't the most tactful. There are even some that are outright criminal. Having said that, I will say that there are also times when people completely misunderstand what bishops say or intend to say. I had times when people would come to talk about something I said that was hurtful to them. Most times it turned out it was just a complete misunderstanding: either I hadn't said what they thought, or I didn't intend anything remotely close to their interpretation. Unfortunately, there are also times when I said things that were just plain dumb or insensitive. Apologies were in order, which never completely heal the situation.

I used to be quick to judge what bishops said to people. After being a bishop, I have a really hard time judging bishops. It is a difficult job. They are asked to do a whole bunch of consequential things and are often watched like a hawk by some members in the ward. I don't think it is terribly useful to have these public discourses of what a particular bishop said and did.
That’s one more place where we disagree. The purpose in discussing these items is very clear: to show how poorly the institution functions. And in my experience it functions pretty poorly. If *you* do/did a conscientious job of being a bishop, I commend you for that. That does not mean the institution as such is a good one.
"Great power connected with ambition, luxury and flattery, will as readily produce a Caesar, Caligula, Nero and Domitian in America, as the same causes did in the Roman Empire." ~Cato, New York Journal
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