Abraham's signature, according to Joseph Smith

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Alphus and Omegus
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Abraham's signature, according to Joseph Smith

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

abraham.png
abraham.png (32.62 KiB) Viewed 692 times
According to the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language, the image above is how one writes the name "Abraham" in Egyptian.

Here's the English description of the character, which like all Egyptian characters, was believed to be ideographic (convey ideas rather than sounds) by Smith and his associates:
Ah brah-aam—a father of many nations a prince of peace, & one who keeps the commandments of God. A patriarch a rightful heir, a highpriest
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ber-1835/8

Does that character exist on any of the surviving fragments of the Joseph Smith papyri?
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Shulem
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Re: Abraham's signature, according to Joseph Smith

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Alphus and Omegus wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 1:56 am
Does that character exist on any of the surviving fragments of the Joseph Smith papyri?

That's a good question. I visualize the character within the hieratic writing of the extant fragments for both Abraham & Joseph rolls (Hor & Ta-sherit-Min). The character in your photo is somewhat curved and eccentric but it matches well with the phonetic character of the Egyptian consonant for the OWL.

That same character I believe is expressed in the Alphabet, see last character on the bottom of the page.

Egyptian Alphabet, 1835–B
Egyptian Alphabet, 1835–C
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Shulem
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Re: Abraham's signature, according to Joseph Smith

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Alphus and Omegus wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 1:56 am
According to the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language, the image above is how one writes the name "Abraham" in Egyptian.

A massive scholarly conversation took place in the Celestial forum where the signature of Abraham was discussed in a lot of detail including complete references to that account. Here:

The Quincy Account
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Shulem
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Church scholars and LDS Egyptologists fully admit that the name "Abraham" is not found anywhere on the extant papyrus fragments in possession of the Church. Neither is the name "Joseph" found on any of the fragments. Joseph Smith said the patriarch Joseph was responsible for writing one of the rolls in his possession. Surviving fragments from both rolls including vignettes that were described to have existed on the rolls bear no indication of biblical names and do not correspond to biblical writings in any manner whatsoever. That also includes all hieroglyphic material found copied or transferred into the various paperwork comprising the Egyptian papers composed in Kirtland. There is an absolute lack of evidence that the papyri in Smith's possession contained information about Abraham & Joseph.

Today, LDS Egyptologists and Church leaders promote and inspire their followers to believe that papyri in possession of Joseph Smith contained the stories of Abraham as presently constituted in the Pearl of Great Price and the story of Joseph which was never produced or translated by Joseph Smith. Some Church apologists have even gone so far as to deny Smith actually translated Egyptian into English but simply invented the story out of revelation by allowing his mind to float away by an unknown spirit that placed those thoughts into his head while looking at the papyrus.

The whole thing is insane. These are the kinds of things that religious crazy people believe. It's a kind of Kool-Aid that they drink to soothe their troubled minds in order to keep the faith. It's sick. And it's Mormonism in all its ugly warts and poisonous concoctions. The apostles of Mormonism are the worst kind of men that have been groomed and raised up for the sole purpose of lying for the Lord and to themselves. It's not possible for Mormon apostles to tell the truth. They don't know what truth is because they are brainwashed and have given themselves over to insanity.

(Did you like that rant?)

:lol:

I am not going to tell John Gee to go to hell because he is already living it. What a sad and sorry man.
Alphus and Omegus
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Re: Abraham's signature, according to Joseph Smith

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

Shulem wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 12:38 pm
Alphus and Omegus wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 1:56 am
According to the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language, the image above is how one writes the name "Abraham" in Egyptian.

A massive scholarly conversation took place in the Celestial forum where the signature of Abraham was discussed in a lot of detail including complete references to that account. Here:

The Quincy Account
Thanks for the link. I've read through 6 of the pages and I did not see anyone note that Smith was quoted by multiple people as saying that Abraham's signature was in the papyri. It's been a little while since I've looked at that material but my understanding is that several people besides Quincy said this.
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Re: Abraham's signature, according to Joseph Smith

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"After he had shown us the fine grounds around his dwelling," reported an anonymous visitor to Nauvoo in late April 1840,
he conducted us, at our request, to an upper room, where he drew aside the curtains of a case, and showed us several Egyptian mummies, which we were told that the church had purchased, at his suggestion some time before, for a large sum of money.

The embalmed body that stands near the centre of the case, said he, is one of the Pharaohs, who sat upon the throne of Egypt; and the female figure by its side, was probably one of his daughters.

It may have been the princess Thermutis, I replied, the same that rescued Moses from the waters of the Nile.

It is not improbable, answered the prophet; but my time has not yet allowed me fully to examine and decide that point. Do you understand the Hebrew language, said he, raising his hand to the top of the case, and taking down a small Hebrew Grammar of Rabbi Sexias [sic].

That language has not altogether escaped my attention, was the reply.

He then walked to a secretary, on the opposite side of the room, and drew out several frames covered with glass, under which were numerous fragments of Egyptian papyrus, on which, as usual, a great variety of hieroglyphical characters had been imprinted.

These ancient records, said he, throw great light upon the subject of Christianity. They have been unrolled and preserved with great labor and care. My time has hitherto been too much taken up to translate the whole of them, but I will show you how I interpret certain parts. There, said he, pointing to a particular character, that is the signature of the patriarch Abraham.

It is indeed a most interesting autograph, I replied, and doubtless the only one extant.
What an ornament it would be to have these ancient manuscripts handsomely set, in appropriate frames, and hung up around the walls of the temple which you are about to erect in this place.

Yes, replied the prophet, and the translation hung up with them.
--"From the Alexandria Gazette. A Glance At The Mormons," in Supplement to the Courant. Published Every Other Week for the Subscribers to the Connecticut Courant (Hartford, August 29, 1840 [VI:18]), p. 140.
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Re: Abraham's signature, according to Joseph Smith

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Alphus and Omegus wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 5:24 pm
Thanks for the link. I've read through 6 of the pages and I did not see anyone note that Smith was quoted by multiple people as saying that Abraham's signature was in the papyri. It's been a little while since I've looked at that material but my understanding is that several people besides Quincy said this.

I trust that after you've read the remaining pages the whole picture will be more clear and you will have come away with something extra.
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Re: Abraham's signature, according to Joseph Smith

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Rick Grunder wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 3:16 am
--"From the Alexandria Gazette. A Glance At The Mormons," in Supplement to the Courant. Published Every Other Week for the Subscribers to the Connecticut Courant (Hartford, August 29, 1840 [VI:18]), p. 140.

And in addition to that:

Shulem wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:18 am
A reputable eyewitness account of the papyrus and a personal interview of a journalist interviewing Joseph Smith provides the perfect answer in showing that Joseph Smith did consider his translations of the papyrus of the Book of Abraham to be scripture. This testimony simply can’t be refuted because it’s Smith’s own words and they were never challenged or detracted. This account was published in no less than three newspapers under the title of “A GLANCE AT THE Mormons”; let me show you:

1) Quincy Whig. By S. M. Bartlett.] Quincy, Illinois, Sat., Oct. 17, 1840. [Vol. 3 - No. 25
2) Huran Reflector. Vol. XI. Norwalk, Ohio, Tuesday, December 8, 1840. No. 46.
3) Alexandria Gazette. Vol. XL. Alexandria, Virginia., Saturday, July 11, 1840. No. 155.

A GLANCE AT THE Mormons wrote:He [Joseph Smith] walked to a secretary on the opposite side of the room, and drew out several frames covered with glass, under which were numerous fragments of Egyptian papyrus, on which, as usual, a great variety of hieroglyphical characters had been imprinted.

‘These ancient records,’ said he, ‘throw great light upon the subject of Christianity. They have been unrolled and preserved with great labor and care. My time has hitherto been too much taken up to translate the whole of them, but I will show you how I interpret certain parts. There,’ said he, pointing to a particular character, ‘that is the signature of the patriarch Abraham.’

It is indeed a most interesting autograph, I replied, and doubtless the only one extant. What an ornament it would be to have these ancient manuscripts handsomely set, in appropriate frames, and hung up around the walls of the temple which you are about to erect in this place.

‘Yes’, replied the prophet, ‘and the translation hung up with them’.

Here we learn that this sacred record is an autograph of the ancient Patriarch Abraham and is on par with the Bible which reveals Christianity to the world. Notice that the reporter is agreeable that the papyrus be hung up on the walls of the Nauvoo temple which was under construction at the time. Then, notice Smith’s reply which absolutely sets in stone that the Book of Abraham translation is scripture, the divine word of God revealed to him when he says, “and the translation hung up with them”.

The translation revealing the Book of Abraham being hung up on the walls of the Nauvoo temple can only mean that it is scripture in every sense of the word, canon. We learn later in the translation of Facsimile No. 2, Fig. 8., “Contains writings that cannot be revealed unto the world; but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God.”
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Shulem
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Re: Abraham's signature, according to Joseph Smith

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Alphus and Omegus wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 1:56 am
Does that character exist on any of the surviving fragments of the Joseph Smith papyri?

Does the name "Abraham" appear anywhere on the papyri?

Nope.

Shulem wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:59 am
Readers who are following this thread and paying close attention to the points I’ve been making will note that there are two specific ingredients missing from the characters above the head of Fig. 2 which totally invalidate Joseph Smith’s translation.

1) No king’s name
2) No royal Cartouche

Now, in this same vein I want to call attention to the lack of support for Smith’s claims carry over to Fig. 1 which is suppose to be ABRAM sitting upon the king’s throne. Note that I refer to the name “ABRAM” rather than “ABRAHAM” because when Abram went to Egypt his name was Abram. He hadn’t received the fuller name of “Abraham” = “a father of many nations” until he was 99 years old just prior to the birth of Isaac. So, “while he was in Egypt” he would have been called “Abram” and a signature bearing his name would bear the name “Abram” not Abraham. Thus, when Smith pointed his finger at a particular character and said “that is the signature of the patriarch Abraham”, he should have said ABRAM because the name Abraham couldn’t have existed on the scroll because God hadn’t yet given him the new name. Smith’s inspiration in saying the name Abraham as it relates to the characters or signature on the papyrus was a fatal flaw. An all knowing God through the Spirit would have whispered the name ABRAM and under those circumstances that is the name Smith would have rightly conveyed. But Smith’s inspiration was fatally flawed.

So, where is the signature of “Abram” in the hieroglyphic registers or labels above Fig. 1? Let’s take a moment to glance over at the other explanations in order to help us better understand the pattern Joseph Smith was weaving with his translations:

1) The hieroglyphic writing above Fig. 4 should contain the name of the “Prince”
2) The characters above Fig. 5 should spell the name “Shulem”
3) We may assume that the name “Olimlah” is found in the writing above Fig. 6

Do you see a pattern?

But in spite of all this there is something very important missing above Fig. 1 and it’s absolutely key in proving that Smith’s translations of the labels do not match his explanations in the least degree. The name “Abram” is missing. It’s not contained in the text or found anywhere on the extant fragments that are part of the original roll. In fact, it should be pointed out that there is not a single Hebrew character anywhere on the papyrus. Had the record truly been an Abrahamic document detailing the life and times of Abram there would have been a Hebrew inscription of some form on that roll.

אברם
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Moksha
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Re: Abraham's signature, according to Joseph Smith

Post by Moksha »

The Spanish language uses that caractor as an upside-down question mark.
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