The Church (big C) shows how financial transparency is done

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drumdude
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The Church (big C) shows how financial transparency is done

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Mormons are trying to turn this financial issue into a “secular media versus religion” narrative:

https://www.deseret.com/2023/5/15/23724 ... ormons-inc
“Deseret News” wrote: Sensible people might disagree over these questions in good faith. But that’s not the public conversation being fostered by these sorts of stories.

Perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised to see secular observers drawing on materialist explanations to make sense of what they witness in communities of faith. But when an entire organization is repeatedly cast in a suspicious light, it starts to feel more like a proxy battle over religion and its free ability to fulfill its mission within a secularizing and skeptical world.
The truth is, most churches don’t have a problem with being financially transparent:

https://uscatholic.org/articles/202008/ ... -in-order/

A few key quotes.
Studies show that when parishes are financially transparent, parishioners are more committed and more generous. A survey of 2,200 Catholics that I helped conduct found that parishioners who felt they had enough information about parish finances contributed 32 percent more than those who felt they didn’t have enough; those who felt laypeople had enough influence in parish finances contributed 26 percent more; parishioners who felt the parish leadership was financially accountable contributed 15 percent more; and those who agreed that the parish leadership discussed important parish decisions contributed 16 percent more than those who disagreed.
financial transparency is about more than preventing embezzlement, although this is important. As a human institution, the church is susceptible to the same types of financial fraud as are proprietary-sector organizations. Transparency in all parish activities, notable in financial matters, is necessary for laypeople to be involved in this co-responsibility.
The Mormon church is a human institution.
Most parishes share their final budget with their parishioners. But to be co-responsible, parishioners need the opportunity to have a say in the budget. One effective means for accomplishing this is to hold a town hall meeting where the preliminary budget is presented to the entire parish so that parishioners can comment and make suggestions. My research shows that 80 percent of regular Mass attendees approve of this approach. Parishes that engage in this practice receive 29 percent more financial contributions than those that don’t.
In research I conducted with my colleague Robert West, we found that 85 percent of U.S. Catholic dioceses had experienced embezzlement in the past five years. Most of this fraud was at the parish level and could have been prevented with better financial transparency.
The Mormon church claims embezzlement and fraud is “almost nonexistent” with zero evidence to back up that claim.

Finally, the Catholic Church in Rome does not take parishioner’s money and give a pittance back to the parishes. Parishes keep their parishioners’ money and decide how to use it locally. The Mormon church in Salt Lake takes every ward’s donations directly, and if the ward is lucky they might get some of it back.
BeNotDeceived
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Re: The Church (big C) shows how financial transparency is done

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I'd be willing to bet money that if a full investigation was conducted into the City Creek project that they would find money laundering, embezzelment, grand theft, theft by deception and all sorts of shenanigans. And that's just one area, imagine what they would uncover if they did a deep dive into all of the church's 'business operations'... the mafia and NY crime families would probably stand in awe. :lol: When you have hundreds of billions and are opaque in the disclosure of your finances, the odds of no criminal activity or clean books are zero!
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Kishkumen
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Re: The Church (big C) shows how financial transparency is done

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I love how LDS people have a materialist theology until they need to emphasize contrast with their “spiritual” purpose. It is a materialist theology that leads to hoarding all this loot. As long as the church does the hoarding, it’s all good in LDS eyes. That is because the LDS God is a cosmic estate holder, always seeking to increase his holdings.

The only problem is that Jesus of Nazareth was pretty clear about what was to be done with earthly wealth. It should go to ease the suffering of living human beings. So, whatever LDS people say about the sanctity of God’s stockpile, it sure is odd that LDS Jesus has wildly different priorities than the Jesus of scripture.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Kishkumen
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Re: The Church (big C) shows how financial transparency is done

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Think of this: the Christian God, being infinite, liberally pours forth His bounty to all. The LDS God, being a Man building his cosmic domains, must prove his divinity by construction, conquest, and procreation. His children get stipends or stewardships, and the deserving ones get ever bigger stewardships, until they take their place as grown up cosmic estate owners, engaged in the same process of cosmic expansion.

The earthly consequences of this settler theology are pretty disastrous, and they have much less room in them for the kenosis of Christian Deity. God pours forth for His creations in Christianity. Everything is grace and giving. God is God through emptying out his treasures in Divine love.

The LDS God is a tough dad, who tells you that you screwed up and can’t be trusted with the family car. This means when you see someone having a bad time of it, well, obviously they screwed up either here or in the pre-mortal existence, and your first impulse will naturally be to judge them accordingly. Just like LDS God always does. You did not earn your Divine love, you see ! That’s why you have less and I have more. I can’t just give you Divine love because that does not work. You have to earn it for yourself.

The different results we see in this story.
Last edited by Kishkumen on Thu May 18, 2023 12:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: The Church (big C) shows how financial transparency is done

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Kishkumen wrote:
Thu May 18, 2023 11:57 am
Think of this: the Christian God, being infinite, liberally pours forth His bounty to all. The LDS God, being a Man building his cosmic domains, must prove his divinity by construction, conquest, and procreation. His children get stipends or stewardships, and the deserving ones get ever bigger stewardships, until they take their place as grown up cosmic estate owners, engaged in the same process of cosmic expansion.

The earthly consequences of this settler theology are pretty disastrous, and they have much less room in them for the kenosis of Christian Deity. God pours forth for His creations in Christianity. Everything is grace and giving. God is God through emptying out his treasures in Divine love.

The LDS God is a tough dad, who tells you that you screwed up and can’t be trusted with the family car.

The different results we see in this story.
Very well said Kish!
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Re: The Church (big C) shows how financial transparency is done

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Kishkumen wrote:
Thu May 18, 2023 11:57 am
Think of this: the Christian God, being infinite, liberally pours forth His bounty to all. The LDS God, being a Man building his cosmic domains, must prove his divinity by construction, conquest, and procreation. His children get stipends or stewardships, and the deserving ones get ever bigger stewardships, until they take their place as grown up cosmic estate owners, engaged in the same process of cosmic expansion.

The earthly consequences of this settler theology are pretty disastrous, and they have much less room in them for the kenosis of Christian Deity. God pours forth for His creations in Christianity. Everything is grace and giving. God is God through emptying out his treasures in Divine love.

The LDS God is a tough dad, who tells you that you screwed up and can’t be trusted with the family car. This means when you see someone having a bad time of it, well, obviously they screwed up either here or in the pre-mortal existence, and your first impulse will naturally be to judge them accordingly. Just like LDS God always does. You did not earn your Divine love, you see ! That’s why you have less and I have more. I can’t just give you Divine love because that does not work. You have to earn it for yourself.

The different results we see in this story.
Just imagine how unrecognizable this would be to the Christ character of the gospels!

He flipped over tables for much lesser sins.
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Kishkumen
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Re: The Church (big C) shows how financial transparency is done

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Just imagine how unrecognizable this would be to the Christ character of the gospels!

He flipped over tables for much lesser sins.
You are saying that LDS leaders are like money changers at the temple?
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: The Church (big C) shows how financial transparency is done

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu May 18, 2023 11:57 am
Think of this: the Christian God, being infinite, liberally pours forth His bounty to all. The LDS God, being a Man building his cosmic domains, must prove his divinity by construction, conquest, and procreation. His children get stipends or stewardships, and the deserving ones get ever bigger stewardships, until they take their place as grown up cosmic estate owners, engaged in the same process of cosmic expansion.

The earthly consequences of this settler theology are pretty disastrous, and they have much less room in them for the kenosis of Christian Deity. God pours forth for His creations in Christianity. Everything is grace and giving. God is God through emptying out his treasures in Divine love.

The LDS God is a tough dad, who tells you that you screwed up and can’t be trusted with the family car. This means when you see someone having a bad time of it, well, obviously they screwed up either here or in the pre-mortal existence, and your first impulse will naturally be to judge them accordingly. Just like LDS God always does. You did not earn your Divine love, you see ! That’s why you have less and I have more. I can’t just give you Divine love because that does not work. You have to earn it for yourself.

The different results we see in this story.
Huh. Elohim is a grabby alien.

https://youtu.be/l3whaviTqqg

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
drumdude
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Re: The Church (big C) shows how financial transparency is done

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Kishkumen wrote:
Thu May 18, 2023 5:03 pm
Just imagine how unrecognizable this would be to the Christ character of the gospels!

He flipped over tables for much lesser sins.
You are saying that LDS leaders are like money changers at the temple?
And said unto them, “It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.”
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Re: The Church (big C) shows how financial transparency is done

Post by Philo Sofee »

drumdude wrote:
Thu May 18, 2023 9:48 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Thu May 18, 2023 5:03 pm


You are saying that LDS leaders are like money changers at the temple?
And said unto them, “It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.”
Not only his house in these "Last Days" but the entire concept of Zion has become a Den of Thieves. I betchta they are now finally using the seer stone to see where more treasure is... :D
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