Correcting the Record

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Correcting the Record

Post by Kishkumen »

In a recent post, our favorite blogger has cited an outdated piece about a supposed first-century fragment of the Gospel of Mark.
The most startling of the recent discoveries, according to Wallace, is the first-century fragment; it is from the gospel of Mark, which is widely believed by scholars to be the very first gospel written. The earliest manuscript of Mark we currently have, called P45, is dated to around the year AD 250. Thus, this new find would predate P45 by 100 to 150 years. “It was dated by one of the world’s leading paleographers,” Wallace wrote two weeks after the debate. “He said he was ‘certain’ that it was from the first century. If this is true, it would be the oldest fragment of the New Testament known to exist.” (70-71, emphasis in the original; citing Daniel Wallace, “Earliest Manuscript of the New Testament Discovered?” Dallas Theological Seminary, 9 February 2012; https://voice.dts.edu/article/wallace-n ... t-century/)
Unfortunately, that information was corrected just over five years ago:
Apology
In my debate with Bart, I mentioned that I had it on good authority that this was definitely a first-century fragment of Mark. A representative for who I understood was the owner of FCM urged me to make the announcement at the debate, which they realized would make this go viral. However, the information I received and was assured to have been vetted was incorrect. It was my fault for being naïve enough to trust that the data I got was unquestionable, as it was presented to me. So, I must first apologize to Bart Ehrman, and to everyone else, for giving misleading information about this discovery. While I am sorry for publicly announcing inaccurate facts, at no time in the public statements (either in the debate or on my blogsite) did I knowingly do this. But I should have been more careful about trusting any sources without my personal verification, a lesson I have since learned.
https://danielbwallace.com/2018/05/23/ ... New Testament-update/

I applaud Dr. Wallace for being honest and owning up to his mistake in a public apology. It is a refreshing thing to see. After all, he would be very motivated to bend the truth or deny reality to rescue a position he fondly wants to be the case. But no, right there on his blog he apologizes to Bart Ehrman for having made a mistake. Imagine that.

Another point that is worthy of note is that this same blogger quotes as an authority someone who is unaware that Pliny the Younger did not write a history of Rome but that his uncle, Pliny the Elder, did. More puzzling yet is the author’s belief that such a text survived in seven manuscripts. Pliny the Elder’s a fine Bassi did not survive in independent manuscripts and is only preserved in a few quotations.
“Hutchinson” wrote:We have only ten manuscripts of Julius Caesar’s Gallic Wars, dating from the tenth century, or 950 years after they were written; only twenty manuscripts of the writings of Tacitus, dating from AD 1100, or a thousand years after they were written; and only seven copies of Pliny the Younger’s History of Rome, dating from AD 850, or 750 years after it was written.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
User avatar
Dr Moore
Endowed Chair of Historical Innovation
Posts: 1812
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:16 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: Correcting the Record

Post by Dr Moore »

Occasionally, this board delights as the Snopes of Faith-Promoting Rumor. Thanks for sharing your insights about this fascination period of history, Reverend!
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: Correcting the Record

Post by Kishkumen »

Dr Moore wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 3:42 am
Occasionally, this board delights as the Snopes of Faith-Promoting Rumor. Thanks for sharing your insights about this fascination period of history, Reverend!
My pleasure, Dr. Moore. Every once in a while the urge to correct the errors that creep in when others’ desire to bolster faith entices them to drop their critical guard gets the better of me, and I speak up. Apologists sometimes recycle the bad history of other apologists. No matter how many times historians try to explain why it is that the many different kinds of evidence supporting the information in later manuscripts of Classical historians provide a check on their information that is often missing for the New Testament literature, abundant and early as the manuscripts may be, apologists pound the pulpit with all of those manuscripts claiming numerous things one is asked to believe that remain as of yet uncorroborated by other evidence. Worse yet, these apologists keep re-announcing that first-century Mark that is not first century.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5015
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: Correcting the Record

Post by Philo Sofee »

Good post Kish...
The other thing that is really refreshing is the continual research into the Gospels even though early attestation of manuscripts has not occurred at the level we all wish they did. Our understanding is still enlarging through terrific analysis and scholarship which I have the privilege of every now and again having one of those Bible scholars on my videos explaining things out for us, though far too few appear to be interested, the scholars are continually updating, revising, and sharing their most recent. Fun stuff!
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: Correcting the Record

Post by dastardly stem »

The most startling of the recent discoveries, according to Wallace, is the first-century fragment; it is from the gospel of Mark, which is widely believed by scholars to be the very first gospel written. The earliest manuscript of Mark we currently have, called P45, is dated to around the year AD 250. Thus, this new find would predate P45 by 100 to 150 years. “It was dated by one of the world’s leading paleographers,” Wallace wrote two weeks after the debate. “He said he was ‘certain’ that it was from the first century. If this is true, it would be the oldest fragment of the New Testament known to exist.” (70-71, emphasis in the original; citing Daniel Wallace, “Earliest Manuscript of the New Testament Discovered?” Dallas Theological Seminary, 9 February 2012; https://voice.dts.edu/article/wallace-n ... t-century/)
Yeah…DCP will say anything, it seems, publicly without vetting it if it’s meant to support his position. In this case I’m less forgiving of Wallace. Yes, good he publicly admitted the ruse. But offering an anonymous source, as if it’s “announcing” an excited find, is in no way helpful. Sounds to me he and perhaps a partner thought they could have snuck something in there. The best part is, even if P45 dated to somewhere between 100-150 years before 250, it’d still be second century. And the oldest piece there is is P52 which some try to date early second century already. The exciting find would have done nothing to validate the gospel of mark nor the New Testament as a whole. But that’s what he intended to do. To me that he was busted and couldn’t support his contention so badly that he had to recant isn’t all that praiseworthy. But it is typical of apologists.

To add salt to DCP’s wounds, that is if he cares about his integrity at all, he likely won’t do as much as Wallace did in this case. He likely won’t get called out on it save for this finding of kishkumen’s. If so, he’ll likely see it since we know he’s always reading up here, but he’ll pretend to have not seen it and will not address it again….until a couple of years pass and he copies and pastes his old post again.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
yellowstone123
High Priest
Posts: 386
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2023 1:55 am
Location: South East Idaho
Contact:

Re: Correcting the Record

Post by yellowstone123 »

From what I heard both versions if mark can be related to the first century bc and on. An early church father writes about the late mark being written in the first century through his writings. months before it was written let me do some checking.
What's faster than a .45 caliber bullet fired from a 1911 A1? The main spring of the gun below the barrel that seems to escape faster when you turn the barrel bushing with a special tool.
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: Correcting the Record

Post by Kishkumen »

To add salt to DCP’s wounds, that is if he cares about his integrity at all, he likely won’t do as much as Wallace did in this case. He likely won’t get called out on it save for this finding of kishkumen’s. If so, he’ll likely see it since we know he’s always reading up here, but he’ll pretend to have not seen it and will not address it again….until a couple of years pass and he copies and pastes his old post again.
He actually did post an addendum noting the errors.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
drumdude
God
Posts: 5212
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: Correcting the Record

Post by drumdude »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 4:19 pm
To add salt to DCP’s wounds, that is if he cares about his integrity at all, he likely won’t do as much as Wallace did in this case. He likely won’t get called out on it save for this finding of kishkumen’s. If so, he’ll likely see it since we know he’s always reading up here, but he’ll pretend to have not seen it and will not address it again….until a couple of years pass and he copies and pastes his old post again.
He actually did post an addendum noting the errors.
Go Dan!
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: Correcting the Record

Post by dastardly stem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 4:19 pm
To add salt to DCP’s wounds, that is if he cares about his integrity at all, he likely won’t do as much as Wallace did in this case. He likely won’t get called out on it save for this finding of kishkumen’s. If so, he’ll likely see it since we know he’s always reading up here, but he’ll pretend to have not seen it and will not address it again….until a couple of years pass and he copies and pastes his old post again.
He actually did post an addendum noting the errors.
Lol. I suck at predicting what people are gonna do. I’m m 0 for…on that
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Tom
Area Authority
Posts: 613
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:41 pm

Re: Correcting the Record

Post by Tom »

drumdude wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 5:12 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 4:19 pm


He actually did post an addendum noting the errors.
Go Dan!
I was amused by the addendum. The DMOB proprietor referred to this board as “elsewhere.”
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.” Heber C. Kimball, 8 Nov. 1857
Post Reply