DiscussMormonism.com

runtu wrote: ↑

Mon May 29, 2023 9:15 pm

Maybe I’m missing something, but what is the motivation for believing or disbelieving NDEs? It sounds like he discounts those that don’t conform to LDS teachings (I.e., that Jesus is limited by a physical body to being in one place at one time). That’s like saying I reject all mythology older than 6000 years old because I’m a young-earth creationist.

He is still fighting the four horsemen of atheism from 2008. The atheist popularizers who have long since moved on with their lives (one literally so). But DCP hasn’t moved on.

Talk about steadying the ark! If Jesus is indeed an infinite and all-powerful being, he most certainly could personally meet every single dying human from Earth, plus all the other aliens that he died for as well. The whole physical body thing gets in the way perhaps, but maybe when you've attained godhood, you learn how to astrally project your physical body.

Methinks Dan is once again trying to put rules on made-up stories to make them more rational. This is why we say he's practicing his own form of Mormonism.

runtu wrote: ↑

Mon May 29, 2023 9:15 pm

Maybe I’m missing something, but what is the motivation for believing or disbelieving NDEs? It sounds like he discounts those that don’t conform to LDS teachings (I.e., that Jesus is limited by a physical body to being in one place at one time). That’s like saying I reject all mythology older than 6000 years old because I’m a young-earth creationist.

Yeah, he has the assumption that Jesus now has a physical body for sure, but I don't think that's his reason for discounting. I think he's an elitist, and I think the limitations of physical confinement was just a convenient way to keep the inner circle as folks he considers A-list. He probably didn't stop to wonder about God the father having a physical body and listening to billions of prayers 24/7 before objecting with that reason.

More interesting to me is that over the years, he doesn't plug LDS NDEs at all. There's all kinds of Mormon NDE books and stories online and he steers clear of it. If he wanted to plug LDS doctrine, he could pass on notes about those but he never has.

What I think is that he's really uncomfortable with specifics, whether it's Mormon theology or not, and in fact, may even be more uncomfortable with detailed Mormon experiences that border on New Age than the non-Mormon stuff, you know, Julie Rowe type stuff.

I think he tries to rationalize the stories in a way that makes sense for him. And very generic; saw the operating table; saw the tunnel, got a blurry peek at the other side, is all he needs to confound non-believers -- to prove there is life after death. Only very special people would logically get much more than that, and too many fascinating things makes it all start to sound nutty.

He's definitely filtering the NDE's through his Mormon lens. I think for most people, to say you died and saw the other side, on the unbelievability scale, let's say that's pretty high, a 9. But for most people, if you can swallow that, adding seeing God takes it from a 9 to a 9.1 because for most people of faith, after you die you go right to God to be judged. Makes perfect sense, if you got so far as the afterlife in the first place.

But for Mormons, seeing God and getting a message is a huge problem because of their beliefs about the spirit world, prophets and chain of authority. God only speaks directly to the prophet, and he hasn't dropped an authorized release in ages, and so for some random Jane to see God and get a message there's this huge conflict -- I mean, literally tens of thousands of people are getting more detailed revelations about the world through NDE's and relaying the message than the authorized mouthpiece, and so that just can't be right. My guess is DCP would be more willing to believe a person had seen Jesus if Jesus had entered them into a non-disclosure. If the person said, "hey you know, I saw some stuff, but was instructed not to talk about it," -- that would probably go a long way with DCP.

Those are great observations, Dean Robbers. And I can’t help but wonder: what would be done if there was ever a *pro-Mopologetic* NDE? Like, Jesus turns up and tells the person they still have work to do, and that the CES Letter needs to be dismantled? Or suppose Robert Boylan suffers a coronary tomorrow and has a vision that he needs to start a new blog that endlessly praises Midgley and the other senior Mopologists. Let’s say that he is personally told that he needs to do this by the spirit of Joseph Fielding Smith. Would this sort of thing get reported on “SeN”?

What I’m getting at here is that I think you’ve unearthed something important, Dean Robbers. While DCP generally has contempt for other faiths, when it comes to LDS NDEs, the situation—very curiously—is reversed.

Chapel Mormonism is a real problem; this is something we already know.

Your scenario, however, is a tough call, Doctor. I think he might have enough self-awareness to feel uncomfortable with the revelation because he'd know how ridiculous it would look, and he'd have to tread very carefully lest the Brethren get wind of it and worry about loyalties, as they did when the palatial Ziggurat was planned to be built.

I do think if the report came from a zealous Mopologist, or even better, someone who then converted to Mopologetics and proved their loyalty over a period of time, that he would believe the specifics of that revelation. If Lou Midgley or Kiwi57 were to have an NDE and claim to have seen Jesus, then he'd accept that also.

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Wed May 31, 2023 12:50 am

Chapel Mormonism is a real problem; this is something we already know.

Your scenario, however, is a tough call, Doctor. I think he might have enough self-awareness to feel uncomfortable with the revelation because he'd know how ridiculous it would look, and he'd have to tread very carefully lest the Brethren get wind of it and worry about loyalties, as they did when the palatial Ziggurat was planned to be built.

I do think if the report came from a zealous Mopologist, or even better, someone who then converted to Mopologetics and proved their loyalty over a period of time, that he would believe the specifics of that revelation. If Lou Midgley or Kiwi57 were to have an NDE and claim to have seen Jesus, then he'd accept that also.

It would be enlightening if we could see a test case. But we most likely never will. I think that if Midgley or Kiwi revealed this to DCP, it would “go in the vault”—they would regard it as sacred and something that shouldn’t be shared with the “unwashed masses.” If I’m right about that, it speaks volumes about the way that DCP regards others’ religious experiences—I.e., he’ll happily parade them around in the most gauche manner imaginable, but what gets a pass? His priesthood blessing where his kid coughs up a piece of meat that he was choking on?