Vogel video on magic parchments and Jupiter talisman

[Shulem]

Heh... the Orion gig is interesting...

It is interesting. We can reason that the crude shapes and things that make up the pictorial design within the upper portion of each plate were carved to represent something in particular -- a 19th century person attempting to imitate primitive art. All of this, however, is somewhat moot. What’s important is that Smith believed the plates were genuine and attributed them to Egyptian origins through Ham. If Smith really was clairvoyant he would have dismissed the whole thing as a fake and con.

[Shulem]

I guess I'm a rat! eeeek!

Hey, rat, I got a question for ya.

Hey, Philo-baby, can ya look at the stars?

Vogel, where the hell are ya?

Bradley, u crum!

What are the chances/odds that it was a coincidence that the six little circles (stars) on the Kinderhook plate align up almost perfectly with the constellation of the six stars in Orion that are on the plate? Turn, twist, and look, GODDAMNIT!

1. Betelgeuse, Meissa, Bellatrix
2. Alnitak, Alnilam, Mintaka

[Shulem]

I don't think these symbols are ever explained anywhere.

Uh, you are mistaken, Dan. It has been explained in this thread and elsewhere. Do you think you can open your eyeballs and take a look, please? All you have to do is open your eyes! How hard is that?

[Boomer57]

I guess I'm a rat! eeeek!

Hey, rat, I got a question for ya.

Hey, Philo-baby, can ya look at the stars?

Vogel, where the hell are ya?

Bradley, u crum!

What are the chances/odds that it was a coincidence that the six little circles (stars) on the Kinderhook plate align up almost perfectly with the constellation of the six stars in Orion that are on the plate? Turn, twist, and look, GODDAMNIT!

1. Betelgeuse, Meissa, Bellatrix
2. Alnitak, Alnilam, Mintaka

The chances are HIGH. This is a representation of Orion, no question in my mind. I have spoken.

[Chap]

What are the chances/odds that it was a coincidence that the six little circles (stars) on the Kinderhook plate align up almost perfectly with the constellation of the six stars in Orion that are on the plate? Turn, twist, and look, GODDAMNIT!

Really?

Orion, if you look at it on a clear night, presents as a pretty distinctive rough rectangle of stars with the belt across the middle. Why leave out the two stars at the lower end of the asterism?

Frankly, I'd need a strong reason to expect Orion to be on the plate before I would even begin to take this seriously. And since the plates are fake, what reason would there be?

[Shulem]

What are the chances/odds that it was a coincidence that the six little circles (stars) on the Kinderhook plate align up almost perfectly with the constellation of the six stars in Orion that are on the plate? Turn, twist, and look, GODDAMNIT!

Really?

Orion, if you look at it on a clear night, presents as a pretty distinctive rough rectangle of stars with the belt across the middle. Why leave out the two stars at the lower end of the asterism?

Frankly, I'd need a strong reason to expect Orion to be on the plate before I would even begin to take this seriously. And since the plates are fake, what reason would there be?

Yes, I think so. And I say so!

The belt (3 stars) is a main feature of Orion in which everyone can easily notice and discern when looking at the night sky. The three stars that form the belt are keen and forever fixed. Space on the Kinderhook plate was limited and there was no room for Saiph and Rigel. It was not the intention of the engraver to make things obvious. It was a test to see what Joseph Smith would come up with and catch him in the act of misinterpreting the astrological signs. They knew about the explanations of Facsimile No. 2 which were published and known abroad and so they continued in thematic astronomy and represented the cosmos in a crude manner that we might expect an ancient artist would engrave and portray. The Kinderhook plates were an opportunity to catch the prophet in a lie.

[huckelberry]

Shulem, I was complete baffled about what you have been going on about here. Why would the kinderhook engravings have a meaning? If there was some arbitrary meaning what meaning would that have. Besides I do not see Orion in the spots which at least for me look a little like any old thing.

Puzzled I broke down and watched the entire Vogel video which was of some interest but the microscopic examination seemed to me to be a bit excessive. Perhaps it was a method to firmly place the things in historical context. Various people have had some enthusiasm for this sort of magic.

I enjoyed Quinns book as providing a lot of background for Josephs mind set.This video added a bit of clarity.

As far as considering Orion I find it reassuring that Betelgeuse after doing a terrible fade away has returned to its old vigorous self.

[Shulem]

Shulem, I was complete baffled about what you have been going on about here. Why would the kinderhook engravings have a meaning? If there was some arbitrary meaning what meaning would that have. Besides I do not see Orion in the spots which at least for me look a little like any old thing.

Well, why shouldn't the symbols in the top registers have meaning? Why shouldn't they mean something to the one who engraved the symbols? Care and skill was employed so it's reasonable there is more behind it than meets the eye. Take into consideration the mindset of 19th century people and you must admit that the moon and stars of the night were more important to them then they are in our day. They relied on the light of the moon to get around at night and the stars were like maps. Today we have electricity and don't rely on the moon and stars to guide us.

But for me, it makes sense how deception of the Kinderhook plates was designed for the sole purpose to catch Joseph Smith in a lie and prove his inability to detect the deception let alone the original symbols used to deceive him. If I was out to catch the prophet, that is what I would have done! Fool him good! Lead him down a rabbit trail and down into the hole where he would be entrapped.

In this thread, I originally noticed how the symbol for Jubanladace had what appeared to be Orion's Belt consisting of three stars joined with a half moon and cross -- see here. That is what I saw. I questioned Vogel about it but he didn't have anything really to add or say. My speculation went pretty much unnoticed. But those three stars in the Jubanladace are what appear to be the so-called pearl necklace of the belt which is an important part of the Orion asterism.

Orion's Belt or the Belt of Orion, also known as the Three Kings or Three Sisters, is an asterism in the constellation Orion. It consists of the three bright stars Alnitak, Alnilam and Mintaka. . . The names of the three stars come from Arabic. Al-nizam (النظام) means "string of pearls"

[Shulem]

Besides I do not see Orion in the spots which at least for me look a little like any old thing.

I might add that the three circles (stars) on the Kinderhook plate (upper right) are not aligned exactly but there is a slight offset from the third star, Mintaka. I think the Kinderhook plate exaggerates that a bit on behalf of the engraver but the offset is distinct just as it is in the sky.

[Chap]

Shulem: I hope you will not mind if I continue to differ from you on the plausibility of this identification.