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TL;DR: Does anyone know of a resource, free or paid, that deals with the development of dispensational concepts in LDS thought?

My general question revolves around the fact that dispensational conepts/vocabulary in LDS thought tends to mirror the history of American Christian dispensational thought. By that I mean dispensational concepts are largely missing from early LDS thought, which mirrors the fact that dispensationalism doesn't really show up in American Christianity until late 19th or early 20th century. Dispensational thoughts seem to be talked about a lot in Mormonism from mid to late 20th century, which also corresponds to the heyday of American Christianity's dispensationalism. Finally, talk of dispensationalism inside the LDS church seems on the wane, and dispensationalism is also on the wane in American Christianity.

It also seems like a lot of uniquely dispensational concepts from American Christianity end up in LDS thought, sometimes exactly, sometimes with a Mormon spin. For example, the viewing of the establishment of the state of Israel is seen as a fulfillment of prophecy in both camps. The importance of ethnic Israel and Jews in end times prophesies is also prominent, though here there is also a Mormon spin with finding people from the house of Judah in patriarchal blessings. These are pretty unique to American dispensationalism.

There are other less unique, but still significant overlaps. Both groups are premillennial in their view of the end times. Both groups believe in a "tribulation," though Mormons don't use the name and are much vaguer in what will happen before the second coming. Both groups believe in a rapture, though again Mormons don't use the name, preferring to say something like "the faithful will be taken up to be with Jesus at the second coming." In Mormon thought, this is also usually accompanied with a notion that the faithful will be returned to earth once the earth has been purified.

There are other examples, but I'll stop there, hopefully you get the idea.

It looks like this is one of the least popular topics ever started here.

Failed Prophecy wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 22, 2023 2:56 pm

It looks like this is one of the least popular topics ever started here.

failed Prophecy, I think you make some good observations in your post yourself.I am not one who would be able to expand much on what you said. I remember dispensational topics to be rather marginal to the church though some people were enthusiastic about them. I have not been

I too wonder at the amazing parallels between "Evangelical Christianity" and Mormonism. Clearly the "prophets" have been influenced by their cousins to the east. Joseph Smith obviously borrowed, but most of his episodes are well documented. But as OP pointed out, the parallelism is uncanny. We have leaders from Lorenzo Snow to Dallin Oaks aping the Quiverfull crowd without using that term. We have the "prophets" since the fifties parroting everything that Bill Gothard preached, and for the same reasons (end of Western society and all that). We have Ezra Benson turning Mormonism into John Birch lite. Jan. 6 had lots of Mormons locking arms with Christofascists. Some exploration of the subject would be very welcome.

Some have discussed the frustration felt by Mormon leaders at not being invited to the "Real Christian" table. I believe that this is one prime motivation for the current drive to turn Mormonism into a Western Baptist movement. I predict that they will continue to change things (watering down the endowment, Come Follow Me, Preach My Gospel) to the point where they will achieve their ultimate goal of being officially incorporated into the SBC.

Or am I mistaken? Thank you.

slskipper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:39 am

I too wonder at the amazing parallels between "Evangelical Christianity" and Mormonism. Clearly the "prophets" have been influenced by their cousins to the east. Joseph Smith obviously borrowed, but most of his episodes are well documented. But as OP pointed out, the parallelism is uncanny. We have leaders from Lorenzo Snow to Dallin Oaks aping the Quiverfull crowd without using that term. We have the "prophets" since the fifties parroting everything that Bill Gothard preached, and for the same reasons (end of Western society and all that). We have Ezra Benson turning Mormonism into John Birch lite. Jan. 6 had lots of Mormons locking arms with Christofascists. Some exploration of the subject would be very welcome.

Some have discussed the frustration felt by Mormon leaders at not being invited to the "Real Christian" table. I believe that this is one prime motivation for the current drive to turn Mormonism into a Western Baptist movement. I predict that they will continue to change things (watering down the endowment, Come Follow Me, Preach My Gospel) to the point where they will achieve their ultimate goal of being officially incorporated into the SBC.

Or am I mistaken? Thank you.

Siskipper, I am no prophet so could be mistaken but your picture appears quite farfetched. I think the leaders of the church are deeply and fundamentally committed to keeping the LDS church separate from and superior to rest of Christianity( the rest may join on LDS terms)

living in the same society at the same time there are going to be overlapping ideas. Large families being one. It is LDS thinking not some quiverfull movement. I have never heard of Bill Gothard so looked him up and was repulsed.(ewe!) He does not sound at all like any Mormonism I was familiar with or participated in.

Mormon John Birch is a real LDS faction unlike other portions of LDS.

Are you concerned that LDS share ideas held by others in the same culture? It would be almost unthinkably strange for that not to be the case I imagine.Are you disturbed by adjustments in the endowment? I do not think you have anything to worry about, It will not become a SBC conversion ritual in any world I am familiar with.

slskipper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:39 am

I too wonder at the amazing parallels between "Evangelical Christianity" and Mormonism. Clearly the "prophets" have been influenced by their cousins to the east. Joseph Smith obviously borrowed, but most of his episodes are well documented. But as OP pointed out, the parallelism is uncanny. We have leaders from Lorenzo Snow to Dallin Oaks aping the Quiverfull crowd without using that term. We have the "prophets" since the fifties parroting everything that Bill Gothard preached, and for the same reasons (end of Western society and all that). We have Ezra Benson turning Mormonism into John Birch lite. Jan. 6 had lots of Mormons locking arms with Christofascists. Some exploration of the subject would be very welcome.

Some have discussed the frustration felt by Mormon leaders at not being invited to the "Real Christian" table. I believe that this is one prime motivation for the current drive to turn Mormonism into a Western Baptist movement. I predict that they will continue to change things (watering down the endowment, Come Follow Me, Preach My Gospel) to the point where they will achieve their ultimate goal of being officially incorporated into the SBC.

Or am I mistaken? Thank you.

The LDS freedom forum is a great place to look for the Mormons you’re talking about.

They don’t feel quite safe espousing their extreme right wing beliefs at the ward level, but they feel safe talking about them online.

I would be very worried when these ideas become mainstream in the LDS church, which will eventually happen as the progressive Mormons continuously get squeezed out.

So ...

Dispensationalism in Mormonism (at least what is seen today) is built on two issues. First, premillenialism was a part of early Mormonism's restorationism. Second, the idea of dispensations was used in particular in the debates between B.H. Roberts and Joseph Fielding Smith over the age of the earth. B.H. Roberts was the first to introduce the idea into the debate, and Joseph Fielding Smith presented an alternate dispensationalism that reflected a more fundamentalist point of view.

You might consider A Dream of the Judgment Day from Oxford University Press: https://www.amazon.com/Dream-Judgment-D ... 0197533744

If you have digital library access, Chapter 7 is the one you are most interested in: “Groaning for the Latter Day” Mormons, Millerites, and the Triumph of Dispensationalist Premillennialism

To start the search for the discussion about how dispensationalism creeps in, I would recommend starting with Richard Sherlock's article, "A Turbulent Spectrum: Mormon Reactions to the Darwinist Legacy" in Journal of Mormon History, Vol. 5 (1978). It's not terribly recent, but it does point you to an aspect of the Mormon Darwinism debates that you don't get in many other places - it will cue you in to the earlier parts of the discussion that come before we get Joseph Fielding Smith's full blown dispensational model that became the standard material for discussion in the LDS Church for several decades.

I note in passing that there was a lot in the early restorationist movement that wasn't terribly compatible with the more fundamentalist interpretations found in dispensationalist premillenialism. Mormonism's earliest takes on dispensationalism took some of their background from the earliest models of organization of the celestial kingdom. By 1880, both the model of celestial organization and the early restorationism had shifted, creating a larger space for the discussions in the early 20th century to take place. Included in my comments here is the fact that early Mormonism, as part of the restorationist movement, held some belief that the second coming only required that the necessary prophecies were completed - and that, consequently, the Church could speed up the second coming by actively working to fulfill those prophecies. This gets replaced (at least partly through dispensationalism) with the idea that the second coming occurs at a fixed point in time.

I spent some time a while back trying to track down possible influences on Joseph Fielding Smith - but in the time I spent, I didn't come up with much. It isn't as clear as the influence that he had from George Price on Young Earth Creationism - and this is why, at least in part, I settled on the notion that Joseph Fielding Smith's interest in dispensationalism came out of the debates with B. H. Roberts - who does invoke a type of dispensationalism to defend his theories of ancient creation.

My own view is that present day Mormonism sits someplace between historic premillennialism and post-tribulation premillennialism - and our view of the rapture and the subsequent millenium are not closely tied to any tradition out there. I think that this fits my notion of a brief interaction modifying earlier views rather than a systematic borrowing in terms of the later developments.

Benjamin McGuire wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:29 pm

So ...

Dispensationalism in Mormonism (at least what is seen today) is built on two issues. First, premillenialism was a part of early Mormonism's restorationism. Second, the idea of dispensations was used in particular in the debates between B.H. Roberts and Joseph Fielding Smith over the age of the earth. B.H. Roberts was the first to introduce the idea into the debate, and Joseph Fielding Smith presented an alternate dispensationalism that reflected a more fundamentalist point of view.

You might consider A Dream of the Judgment Day from Oxford University Press: https://www.amazon.com/Dream-Judgment-D ... 0197533744

If you have digital library access, Chapter 7 is the one you are most interested in: “Groaning for the Latter Day” Mormons, Millerites, and the Triumph of Dispensationalist Premillennialism

Thanks for the response and the recommendation. When you mean digital library access, I'm assuming you mean some sort of university account?

Benjamin McGuire wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:29 pm

To start the search for the discussion about how dispensationalism creeps in, I would recommend starting with Richard Sherlock's article, "A Turbulent Spectrum: Mormon Reactions to the Darwinist Legacy" in Journal of Mormon History, Vol. 5 (1978). It's not terribly recent, but it does point you to an aspect of the Mormon Darwinism debates that you don't get in many other places - it will cue you in to the earlier parts of the discussion that come before we get Joseph Fielding Smith's full blown dispensational model that became the standard material for discussion in the LDS Church for several decades.

Thanks for the additional recommendation. I just downloaded it from USU's website.

Benjamin McGuire wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:29 pm

I spent some time a while back trying to track down possible influences on Joseph Fielding Smith - but in the time I spent, I didn't come up with much. It isn't as clear as the influence that he had from George Price on Young Earth Creationism - and this is why, at least in part, I settled on the notion that Joseph Fielding Smith's interest in dispensationalism came out of the debates with B. H. Roberts - who does invoke a type of dispensationalism to defend his theories of ancient creation.

This is what I was afraid of. The pattern of borrowing seems clear based on the ideas and the timeframe. However, given the Mormon incentive to appear original, and surely not to appear to borrow from a false religion, copying information while hiding the source seems to be the most likely procedure. And since we know that Joseph Fielding Smith had absolutely no qualms about literally hiding any source he found inconvenient, that it was him doing it makes sense.