In which Jim Bennet and Jacob Hansen discuss their Differences on Mormon Book Reviews

[Canadiandude2]

Link:

https://youtu.be/JjSQHd0I5EI

As described by a user on Mormon Reddit:

On the most recent episode of Mormon Book Reviews, Steve somehow got Jim Bennett and Jacob Hansen together for a discussion. It went as you would expect...I recommend watching the entire video.

Things were amicable at first, but, naturally, Jim learned how much of an [explicit] Hansen is…

He then shows a clip where Jim Bennett flips some tables in the temple so to speak. Somebody give Bennet a whip cause if there is a higher power out there- he is so done and feel’in it!

Jim is far from alone when it comes to this sentiment. The over zealous orthodoxy police, captained by Hansen, does more damage to the Church, especially those in faith crisis, than any other organization (they are competing with FAIR and the Church, don't get me wrong, there is significant overlap here). This conversation highlights the growing division in the Church concerning discipleship. I agree with Jacob that the struggles between internal camps in the Church will define the future of theorganization.

There was a really good few articles on Wheat & Tares as well as a more scholarly journal publication out re: church numbers. Things are getting strained in Mormon Land. The orthodox will once again cannibalize the church’s best and brightest for their politics. Hell, a family member just told me he trusted *Jordan Peterson’s ‘interpretation’ of the history and meaning(s) behind the Bible and it’s organization than our own Dan McClellan.

Links:

https://jmssa.org/stewart/

https://wheatandtares.org/2023/07/05/ha ... t-rolling/

I strongly doubt this is gonna be a church where my nieces and nephews are gonna want to remain in as they grow older.

Edit: I keep confusing all my ‘conservative’ Peterson's. Dan, Jordan, I don’t know if there’s a crazy David Peterson but I’m sure one exists.

[drumdude]

This is a wonderful video. It highlights the plain fact that the brethren are not capable of leading the church effectively. They have no response to all of this division within their church. They’ve spent decades blaming it on evangelicals, blaming it on atheists, blaming it on doubters, blaming it on gays, blaming it on everyone but themselves.

They were wrong about polygamy. They were wrong about racism. They were wrong about sexism. They’re wrong about LGBT.

Mormons can’t ignore all the mistakes that the brethren have made any more. The children of gay couples ban was the last example of a revelation the brethren received and it was reversed within 5 years! The only thing Mormonism can do is jettison all of its unique problematic doctrines and culture and become a generic Christian denomination.

[Moksha]

Jacob Hansen is seeking to defend the Mormon Brethren's hatred of the LGBTQ community. Jim Bennett dares not speak against the hatred of the Brethren for fear of losing his membership but finds it difficult to support Hansen's position due to Bennett being a decent human being and Christian.

[huckelberry]

Well, I found that exchange painful. I find myself thinking that these two fellows represent two different types of people who will probably always approach problems differently. In some instances the abrasion can be avoided by keeping a little distance. Mr. Bennet observed that he thought direct debate can cloud issues and distort personal understanding more than it can help. It certainly can do that I think but I hope not always as I and we participate on this message board containing a fair number of contentious debates. A caution may be worthwhile.

Drumdude obseved the following:

"Mormons can’t ignore all the mistakes that the brethren have made any more. The children of gay couples ban was the last example of a revelation the brethren received and it was reversed within 5 years! The only thing Mormonism can do is jettison all of its unique problematic doctrines and culture and become a generic Christian denomination."

drumdude I can see the mistakes you are pointing to. I cannot claim to know the future but my old experience, perhaps out to date, says Mormons are largely capable of absorbing and ignoring the mistakes and will hardly give up Mormon distinctives which are generally valued very highly.

[drumdude]

Well, I found that exchange painful. I find myself thinking that these two fellows represent two different types of people who will probably always approach problems differently. In some instances the abrasion can be avoided by keeping a little distance. Mr. Bennet observed that he thought direct debate can cloud issues and distort personal understanding more than it can help. It certainly can do that I think but I hope not always as I and we participate on this message board containing a fair number of contentious debates. A caution may be worthwhile.

Drumdude obseved the following:

"Mormons can’t ignore all the mistakes that the brethren have made any more. The children of gay couples ban was the last example of a revelation the brethren received and it was reversed within 5 years! The only thing Mormonism can do is jettison all of its unique problematic doctrines and culture and become a generic Christian denomination."

drumdude I can see the mistakes you are pointing to. I cannot claim to know the future but my old experience, perhaps out to date, says Mormons are largely capable of absorbing and ignoring the mistakes and will hardly give up Mormon distinctives which are generally valued very highly.

If you add up everything, big and small, that has changed in Mormonism over the years, I think there’s a definite trend there.

Polygamy being the biggest loss. And home teaching being a recent small loss. I have seen no shortage of Mormons who remember growing up in a very different church in the 1970s.

[huckelberry]

Well, I found that exchange painful. I find myself thinking that these two fellows represent two different types of people who will probably always approach problems differently. In some instances the abrasion can be avoided by keeping a little distance. Mr Bennet observed that he thought direct debate can cloud issues and distort personal understanding more than it can help. It certainly can do that I think but I hope not always as I and we participate on this message board containing a fair number of contentious debates. A caution may be worthwhile.

Drumdude obseved the following:

drumdude I can see the mistakes you are pointing to. I cannot claim to know the future but my old experience, perhaps out to date, says Mormons are largely capable of absorbing and ignoring the mistakes and will hardly give up Mormon distinctives which are generally valued very highly.

If you add up everything, big and small, that has changed in Mormonism over the years, I think there’s a definite trend there.

Polygamy being the biggest loss. And home teaching being a recent small loss. I have seen no shortage of Mormons who remember growing up in a very different church in the 1970s.

Drumdude, my intention here was simply to draw observations. I am curious about your different take and have no desire to prove you wrong. But making comparison of observations.... I am sure you are correct that the church changes. I think Mr. Bennett made good observations about that process of change. It might be noted that attitudes towards gays and other LGBT folks are not Mormon distinctives. They are things in common with other American Protestants.

I am curious about what changes stand out that people mention that have happened since the 1970s. Meeting scheduals and plans get shuffled about a bit. Of course there is the blacks and priesthood change. That was in part a Mormon distinctive that had become increasingly unpopular.

[drumdude]

If you add up everything, big and small, that has changed in Mormonism over the years, I think there’s a definite trend there.

Polygamy being the biggest loss. And home teaching being a recent small loss. I have seen no shortage of Mormons who remember growing up in a very different church in the 1970s.

Drumdude, my intention here was simply to draw observations. I am curious about your different take and have no desire to prove you wrong. But making comparison of observations.... I am sure you are correct that the church changes. I think Mr. Bennett made good observations about that process of change. It might be noted that attitudes towards gays and other LGBT folks are not Mormon distinctives. They are things in common with other American Protestants.

I am curious about what changes stand out that people mention that have happened since the 1970s. Meeting scheduals and plans get shuffled about a bit. Of course there is the blacks and priesthood change. That was in part a Mormon distinctive that had become increasingly unpopular.

I found Bennet’s take slightly paradoxical. He says he wants to ensure there is a church in 50-75 years. And the church may have to change to meet that goal. But if it’s a completely different church, what exactly was the point?

Both of them seem to be struggling to define the core identity of LDS Mormonism. In my opinion there isn’t one, which is why they’re so upset. The only singular thread holding the church together is “the brethren have the authority” and if that goes the whole thing falls apart.

[Rivendale]

This is a wonderful video. It highlights the plain fact that the brethren are not capable of leading the church effectively. They have no response to all of this division within their church. They’ve spent decades blaming it on evangelicals, blaming it on atheists, blaming it on doubters, blaming it on gays, blaming it on everyone but themselves.

They were wrong about polygamy. They were wrong about racism. They were wrong about sexism. They’re wrong about LGBT.

Mormons can’t ignore all the mistakes that the brethren have made any more. The children of gay couples ban was the last example of a revelation the brethren received and it was reversed within 5 years! The only thing Mormonism can do is jettison all of its unique problematic doctrines and culture and become a generic Christian denomination.

I watched this twice. One with my wife. My wife will grant anyone freedom of feeling and doing what they consider their best life. That broke her heart.

[Bond]

Why did I watch this? 2x speed makes it palatable I suppose. The only person who didn't have his head up his ass was the host who said the Mormon Church (like Evangelical churches) is going to be pro gay marriage within 20-30 years if only to save their membership numbers from totally collapsing. Otherwise the Mormon church is going to be on a large scale version of every Mainline church that's 45 Boomers and Silents with two families of Millennials still half attending down from 100+ 30 years ago.

[Moksha]

I found Bennet’s take slightly paradoxical. He says he wants to ensure there is a church in 50-75 years. And the church may have to change to meet that goal. But if it’s a completely different church, what exactly was the point?

He is hoping for a new and improved Church. As Mr. Bennett points out, much change happens in the Church as it catches up with the mores of Mankind. Due to the elderly nature of the leaders, they will still remain 30-40 years behind the times, but change will have occurred. Perhaps they will have found a new target on which to vent their hatred or perhaps become absorbed in a new corporate activity.