How Good is the MTC at Teaching Foreign Languages?

[Analytics]

Does the MTC have a good program for learning foreign languages? Has the program changed in the last 34 years since I left?

I've been thinking about the MTC a lot the last few days, because I just decided I wanted to learn a 3rd language and have started studying French.

As some background, I went to Argentina on my mission 34 years ago, and at the time I really, REALLY struggled with Spanish. At the MTC, I was literally in the bottom 1-2% of Spanish learners--what they were teaching just didn't stick in my brain. I was actually pulled out of my regular class with my district to get cognitive testing and actually evaluate whether I needed to be reassigned to an English-speaking mission. I was that bad. The irony is that eventually, my Spanish got quite good--especially after my mission. When I got married, Spanish was the primary language of my household, and post mission, I've spent a few years living in Mexico and Chile.

When I decided to start French a few days ago, I downloaded an App called "Duolingo", and comparing the way that Duolingo teaches French to the way the MTC taught me Spanish is fascinating. I remember there were stories going around about how the CIA would send people to Provo so they could get the Mormons' secret on teaching foreign language--why were Mormons so much better and learning foreign languages than CIA operatives (the real secret was the Gift of Tongues, of course!).

But now I'm of the opinion that the MTC language program--at least as it was 34 years ago--was substandard. I can't imagine that the CIA was particularly impressed with the MTC's teaching methods or the results. MTC language training was intense, but it wasn't efficient.

[Analytics]

My two big complaints about how the MTC taught Spanish is that it was most fundamentally based on rote memorization for vocabulary, and then a grammar-theory-first approach to putting sentences together. For example, if I wanted to say, "the book is blue", I'd first have to study lists of vocabulary words that included the words "el", "libro", "ser", and "azul", and would then learn how the English word "to be" can be translated as either the Spanish verb "ser" or "estar" depending on the context, because "to be" actually means two different things. I'd then figure out how to choose "ser" as the correct verb, and then chose one of 42 versions of irregular conjugations based on 6 persons (first, second, third person, by singular or plural) and then one of seven tenses (present, imperfect, preterite, future, subjunctive, imperative, conditional). Once I knew that, I could choose the correct conjugation of ser and would know how to write the word, and would then use the rules on pronunciation they gave to translate the word into sounds, which I would then say. It was a completely unnatural approach--they were teaching us a language as if they were programming a computer.

In contrast, Duolingo is a totally natural, organic approach. There are no lists of vocabulary words. Literally the first thing it did was give a one-question multiple choice test. It showed the word "chat", and then give us a multiple-choice test about what it means. Through analyzing the choices they give and a little luck, you might guess that "chat" means "cat." Then without any explanation as to why, it explained that "chat" is pronounced basically like "shaw." It then starts having you say and write that one word, and adding to it one by one. Soon it starts introducing new words in sentences, where you need to guess what the word means in the context of the sentence. For example, it showed the sentence "Es to un chat?" and you need to guess what the word "Es" means, and what the sentence means. (It means "Are you a cat?") At that point, you have no idea that "conjugation" is a thing, and that "es" is a conjugation of an abstract word that means "to be." You just know that "Es to un chat?" is a funny, whimsical, easy-to-visualize sentence where you are asking somebody if they are a cat.

Every single thing Duolingo introduces is in the context of a game or quiz, so you are trained to constantly try to infer what things mean by their context. For example, pretty soon you infer from the tests that you use the word "un" before boy things and the word "une" before girl things. They never explicitly tell you why--it's just the way it is. And that is exactly how French kids learn French.

Learning French this way is actually working--I'm learning more French in one hour on this app than I learned Spanish in an entire day in the MTC. What I'm figuring out is that while some people have intrinsically good memories and can memorize lists of words and grammar rules, most people don't memorize well that way, and I can't learn that way at all. But, the human brain is a language processing machine. If you drop a human being into a culture they'll learn to speak the language of that culture in the same way that if you drop a fish in water, it will figure out how to swim. All languages are foreign languages--we weren't born knowing how to speak. Yet we all learn. I realize brain elasticity changes over time, but in general, if you can learn one language, there's no reason you can't learn more. It's just a matter of doing it the right way.

Has language training improved in Provo since I was there?

[Kishkumen]

Great topic, Analytics. I have been using Duolingo for some years now. During the pandemic I decided to subscribe to it. I have studied German, French, Modern Greek, Spanish, and Esperanto there. If I were more adventurous, I would take on more. My experience is that Duolingo has really helped me read these languages better up to a certain level, but I have found it less useful for active use of the language. Being in the position of an LDS missionary forced to use the language would probably help with that a lot, however.

[Fence Sitter]

I have a son who served a Spanish mission and now works as a linguist in the military. He learned a third language in the military. He taught languages at both the MTC and in the military. for what it's worth he thinks the military training is much better than how the Church taught him.

[Failed Prophecy]

My experience with language learning is that there's no one right way to do it and different styles work better for different people. The MTC probably works very well for some people, ok for others, and horrible for the rest. They probably do as well as they can teaching people at the MTC given their massive constraints.

• Extreme Time Limitations: They only have 8 weeks to train people. That's just not enough time to get proficient at anything. It's probably enough time to give people tourist level proficiency for easy languages like Spanish. I don't know what the hell you can teach in 8 weeks for Korean or Chinese. So one thing they could do, especially for harder languages, would be to keep people there longer. The defense language institute allocates 64 weeks for learning Chinese, which is 8x longer. They won't do that because...
• Limited Motivation: Let's face it, most of the kids there just aren't that motivated, they really aren't getting much from learning the language. Historically, getting laid and making money are the two big motivators to learn a language. Neither is on the table for those kids. Keeping them in the MTC any longer than they are probably won't do much. The only real motivation is the "sink or swim" fear people have when confronted with living in a strange country, hence no real benefit from teaching them more or longer.
• Limited Goals: The LDS church really only needs those kids to learn a limited selection of the language. When I got back from my mission, even though I was considered very fluent, I was shocked at how uncomfortable I was in non-religious contexts because of limited practice and vocabulary.

[Analytics]

Great topic, Analytics. I have been using Duolingo for some years now. During the pandemic I decided to subscribe to it. I have studied German, French, Modern Greek, Spanish, and Esperanto there. If I were more adventurous, I would take on more. My experience is that Duolingo has really helped me read these languages better up to a certain level, but I have found it less useful for active use of the language. Being in the position of an LDS missionary forced to use the language would probably help with that a lot, however.

Wow! That's pretty freakin' adventurous. I'm impressed.

What comes to mind is my experience of raising a kid in a household that primarily spoke a foreign language. Until she was about 2 my daughter mixed languages (e.g. "¡Mira! ¡La moona! ¡La moona!"), but as soon as she realized the universe actually had two distinct languages, she also realized that everybody speaks English but only mom and dad spoke Spanish. At that point, she refused to speak Spanish. We would talk to her in Spanish, but she would respond in English. It was exactly like this scene from Rocky 2:

Rocky: Hey, yo, Father Carmine! Father Carmine! Hey, Father Carmine, are you home? Father Carmine! Hey, yo, Father Carmine!

Carmine: Chi e?

Rocky: It's me, Rocky Balboa.

Carmine: Rocky. Ma che cosa fai la? Non devi fare la lotta questa sera?

Rocky: I'm goin' to the fight, but I was wonderin' if you could do me a small favor.

Carmine: Ma sicuro. Che favore? Che?

Rocky: It's about the fight. Now I got the family and the baby. I was wonderin' if you could throw down a blessin', so if I get beat up tonight, it won't be too bad. Could you do somethin' like that?

Carmine: Padre, figlio, spirito santo. E cosi sia.

Rocky: Thanks a lot, Father. I gotta go. I'm so late. See you in church. Take care.

Speaking, understanding, reading, and writing are all different skills.

[Analytics]

I have a son who served a Spanish mission and now works as a linguist in the military. He learned a third language in the military. He taught languages at both the MTC and in the military. for what it's worth he thinks the military training is much better than how the Church taught him.

Interesting! When was he in the MTC?

I have a hypothesis that because of MTC culture, they are reluctant to make very many changes or updates to how they teach languages. I'd love to be proven wrong on that, though.

[Analytics]

My experience with language learning is that there's no one right way to do it and different styles work better for different people. The MTC probably works very well for some people, ok for others, and horrible for the rest. They probably do as well as they can teaching people at the MTC given their massive constraints.

• Extreme Time Limitations: They only have 8 weeks to train people. That's just not enough time to get proficient at anything. It's probably enough time to give people tourist level proficiency for easy languages like Spanish. I don't know what the hell you can teach in 8 weeks for Korean or Chinese. So one thing they could do, especially for harder languages, would be to keep people there longer. The defense language institute allocates 64 weeks for learning Chinese, which is 8x longer. They won't do that because...
• Limited Motivation: Let's face it, most of the kids there just aren't that motivated, they really aren't getting much from learning the language. Historically, getting laid and making money are the two big motivators to learn a language. Neither is on the table for those kids. Keeping them in the MTC any longer than they are probably won't do much. The only real motivation is the "sink or swim" fear people have when confronted with living in a strange country, hence no real benefit from teaching them more or longer.
• Limited Goals: The LDS church really only needs those kids to learn a limited selection of the language. When I got back from my mission, even though I was considered very fluent, I was shocked at how uncomfortable I was in non-religious contexts because of limited practice and vocabulary.

That's fair. After 8 weeks, the other guys-I-mean-Elders in my district basically had a tourist level of Spanish. After 6 months in country they could defend themselves okay, and were more-or-less conversationally fluent after a year. But I totally hear you on the limited vocabulary--I sounded like a genius if we were talking about the pros and cons of infant baptism, but if the conversation strayed from religion or from the mundane aspects of life? Nothing. After my mission I was asked to translate a document about insurance and I didn't understand half the words. ¿Prima? ¿Reserva? ¿Valor de rescate? Not a chance.

I felt the MTC tried to give us enough Spanish so that if we got immediately assigned to a native speaker, we'd have enough Spanish to get going in a true immersive experience. But is the way they taught really an effective, efficient use of those eight weeks? I don't think so.

[Kishkumen]

Wow! That's pretty freakin' adventurous. I'm impressed.

What comes to mind is my experience of raising a kid in a household that primarily spoke a foreign language. Until she was about 2 my daughter mixed languages (e.g. "¡Mira! ¡La moona! ¡La moona!"), but as soon as she realized the universe actually had two distinct languages, she also realized that everybody speaks English but only mom and dad spoke Spanish. At that point, she refused to speak English. We would talk to her in Spanish, but she would respond in English. It was exactly like this scene from Rocky 2:

Rocky: Hey, yo, Father Carmine! Father Carmine! Hey, Father Carmine, are you home? Father Carmine! Hey, yo, Father Carmine!

Carmine: Chi e?

Rocky: It's me, Rocky Balboa.

Carmine: Rocky. Ma che cosa fai la? Non devi fare la lotta questa sera?

Rocky: I'm goin' to the fight, but I was wonderin' if you could do me a small favor.

Carmine: Ma sicuro. Che favore? Che?

Rocky: It's about the fight. Now I got the family and the baby. I was wonderin' if you could throw down a blessin', so if I get beat up tonight, it won't be too bad. Could you do somethin' like that?

Carmine: Padre, figlio, spirito santo. E cosi sia.

Rocky: Thanks a lot, Father. I gotta go. I'm so late. See you in church. Take care.

Speaking, understanding, reading, and writing are all different skills.

Thanks! Yea, my biggest regret in life is that I never became fluent in any foreign language. I can read a handful of languages OK, but being fluent is what I, sorry to say, missed out on. In fact, I find it a lot more challenging to hear languages than reading them. I find that quite difficult.

In any case, my son spoke Chinese until he joined our family in the fall of 2008. After we brought him home to the US, he dropped Chinese altogether. Made me sad.

[Gadianton]

https://www.newsweek.com/cias-next-generation-200766

WASP from Yale used to be considered the ideal spy for the old-boy network of the CIA. Now agency recruiters jump at the chance to snare a Mormon. Young Mormons tend to have squeaky-clean backgrounds and, thanks to their work as Third World missionaries, they often have a skill the CIA desperately needs these days: knowledge of a foreign language.

Makes perfect sense. It wouldn't surprise me if the CIA had an interest in the Church's training methods in addition to plucking RMs with field experience. Now, was the CIA envious of MTC missionaries who were learning languages so much faster than their guys were? How would anybody know how the MTC training compared to the CIA's training? That's where my money is on the embellishment.

I can see CIA officials saying, "hey look at the Mormons training these kids by the thousands. We ought to check out their program and see how they do it." Why not? In addition to checking out language programs at high schools and colleges.

My guess, like yours, is that it was never very good and that it still sucks, unless they've simply adopted the program you're talking about. And that's because it didn't need to be. The cost of feeding and boarding a missionary in Provo vs. kicking their but into the sticks of South America is greater, no doubt, why not just let them suffer there in poverty sooner rather than later where they'll be hearing the language around them all the time and will pick up enough to get by.

If the CIA needed a mind-blowing language consultant, they should get with the KGB who produced all those spies who integrated into America seamlessly right off the plane.