The Rosebud MEGATHREAD

[Moksha]

I’m also not sure that I’ve seen sufficient evidence for all of Rosebud’s claims.

Perhaps you could search for it in Professor Gee's long scroll theory. If you cannot find evidence for the vindication of the long scroll, Rosebud, or Jenn Kamp then perhaps it has been beamed back to Kolob (or never existed beyond a fanciful story meant to befuddle or seek revenge).

[Marcus]

You are so right-- I don't know the more recent stories, but she hasn't behaved well at all, from the very beginning, all the way through all the years and years and years of stories we've heard, and that she's told here.

For me, however, the bottom line is a victim can be extremely ill-behaved in various other aspects of life, and still potentially be a victim, if the intent is to determine culpability or not of the other person. We don't judge a person's actions by how much we approve or disapprove of the potential victim. We judge by the facts of the case, as well as we are able to determine them.

That’s fair- that’s why I said the other considerations were less relevant.

I guess my question what evidence did you find that suggested to you that the resultant rulings are suggestive of any miscarriage of justice, or that Dehlin got away with what he did- relative to the available evidence for what he was accused of?

As an outsider, it’s been difficult to follow this case and phenomenon- given that the evidence and important debates as well as accusations go well beyond public court proceedings, and into the blogosphere, where allegations, outcomes, and findings are argued without any to determine their validity and reliability. This is especially the case for those of the above that exist uniquely outside public court records)

I too believe that Dehlin committed an abuse of power. If I remember correctly, I’m also not sure that I’ve seen sufficient evidence for all of Rosebud’s claims.

So I guess I’m confused on then is what makes the outcomes- the ?settlement- insufficient that it legitimizes Rosebud attempts to re-litigate it socially- with dodgy alliances made with people who make it their grift to persecute victims like her, except when at the hands of social conservatism’s opponents?

I agree that Rosebud doesn’t have to be perfect to be considered a victim. What I’m struggling with however is determining her degree of victimhood relative to the degree that she has harmed others via stretching the truth, allying with victimizers, and attacking anyone who disagrees with her based upon illegitimate means and evidence.

I dunno. I’m open to being wrong, it’s just very difficult to parse the particulars, so let me know if/where I’m off.

Oh boy, great questions and comments.

Re people's latest opinions on the whole saga there was a massive thread a year or so ago where pretty much everyone weighed in, i don't recall if you were here for that, but let me see if i can dig up a link.

[Canadiandude2]

Oh boy, great questions and comments.

Re people's latest opinions on the whole saga there was a massive thread a year or so ago where pretty much everyone weighed in, i don't recall if you were here for that, but let me see if i can dig up a link.

Appreciated. Sometimes it feels like I’m living in a different world up here than ya’ll hahaha!

I suspect there are even fewer Mormons and post-Mormons who even have knowledge on, and follow these debates and their primary participants up here.

[drumdude]

You go from your “opinion” to” the actual situation” pretty quickly, don’t you, Marcus?

Who was your source for this?

- Doc

Please answer the above quote.

Also, was John Dehlin or Open Stories Foundation or anyone affiliated with Open Stories Foundation your client at any time, or hire you in any capacity to work in their interest?

- Doc

RFM disclosed on his podcast (couched in a not-so-subtle hypothetical) that Jenn Kamp may have failed to renew the legal liability insurance that would have provided funds for the lawsuit that Open Stories Foundation is now engaged in with Jenn Kamp.

During the stalking hearing, John Dehlin said he wished many times that RFM would not say certain things, regarding all of this, in public. I can imagine that being one of them.

I understand RFM’s desire to show the world John is being smeared but I think the wisest course of action is to report without much commentary or insider information before it makes it to the courts. Just my .02.

I would really like to see Jenn Kamp face consequences for these false allegations. After Rosebud, after Money, after so many women have made up accusations based only off feelings.

[consiglieri]

It’s actually in the lawsuit filed by Open Stories Foundation

[consiglieri]

You go from your “opinion” to” the actual situation” pretty quickly, don’t you, Marcus?

My opinion about the actual situation. But bless your heart for trying. You hang in there, gooseleg, you'll get the hang of reading one day!!!!!

Nice try to reframe what you said.

And with a dash of patronizing, too!

How darling…

[drumdude]

I’m also not sure that I’ve seen sufficient evidence for all of Rosebud’s claims..

Rosebud posted all of her evidence, and then shortly thereafter deleted it. The evidence was reposted here:

http://mormonrosebud.wikidot.com/

The TLDR is John indeed had an emotional affair with Rosebud, as you can see in the text messages. But it wasn’t sexual harassment.

[Canadiandude2]

I’m also not sure that I’ve seen sufficient evidence for all of Rosebud’s claims..

Rosebud posted all of her evidence, and then shortly thereafter deleted it. The evidence was reposted here:

http://mormonrosebud.wikidot.com/

The TLDR is John indeed had an emotional affair with Rosebud, as you can see in the text messages. But it wasn’t sexual harassment.

That seems to be leaving out something no?

Did he engage in any romantic or sexual advances towards the person, despite being a person of greater authority and power over the intended recipient?

Neither the target’s pursuit nor acceptance of such necessarily matters, as this would still constitute an abuse of power.

Furthermore, do we have any evidence of an attempt by the person in power to avoid or impede transparency or accountability on the matter? Particularly via the use of the status, powers, and/or resources available to him that would not have been available had they been of equal status in the organization?

If what I recall is true you’re leaving out quite a bit, and I have no more patience for anyone on this forum who knowingly stoops as low as your average f*Celestial Kingdom’in mopologist.

We’re it otherwise- one’s critique and withdrawal from Mormonism becomes more akin to merely following one’s self-interest as an overly burdened practitioner and tithe-payer, than someone with a deeper respect for the actual search for ‘truth’. Am I ‘pearl clutching’? D*mn rights!

I like to know who my fellow truth-seekers and allies are in this world.

[Canadiandude2]

The TLDR is John indeed had an emotional affair with Rosebud, as you can see in the text messages. But it wasn’t sexual harassment.

If I’m right on what you left out, you’ll have to forgive me if I have little trust in your assessment as to what is and is not sexual harassment.

Surely there are court documents and filings as well right? Rulings of the outcome and/or evidence of a settlement?

Once again this board reminds me of why I can’t stop speaking highly enough of many of our actual Mormon studies scholars- particularly those I’ve named. They are much more careful in being methodical, transparent, specific- rigorous- than far too many (including myself) tend to be.

They are the (commonly progressive and/or post-) Mormons worth modelling. That we should model. (Yes- DP, the slight even, or especially applies to you)

[drumdude]

Surely there are court documents and filings as well right? Rulings of the outcome and/or evidence of a settlement?

Yeah I’m just hiding them from you.