The Rosebud MEGATHREAD

[Marcus]

I’m also not sure that I’ve seen sufficient evidence for all of Rosebud’s claims..

Rosebud posted all of her evidence, and then shortly thereafter deleted it. The evidence was reposted here:

http://mormonrosebud.wikidot.com/

The TLDR is John indeed had an emotional affair with Rosebud, as you can see in the text messages. But it wasn’t sexual harassment.

Well, that's your tldr, but others disagreed. in my opinion, a person lost their job because of the actions of a superior with whom they had an affair, and the power imbalance and consequent loss of employment constituted sexual harassment. in my opinion.

There were very strong opinions on both sides of the issue the last time we discussed this.

[drumdude]

Rosebud posted all of her evidence, and then shortly thereafter deleted it. The evidence was reposted here:

http://mormonrosebud.wikidot.com/

The TLDR is John indeed had an emotional affair with Rosebud, as you can see in the text messages. But it wasn’t sexual harassment.

Well, that's your tldr, but others disagreed. in my opinion, a person lost their job because of the actions of a superior with whom they had an affair, and the power imbalance and consequent loss of employment constituted sexual harassment. in my opinion.

There were very strong opinions on both sides of the issue the last time we discussed this.

You are correct, of course it does depend on the definition of sexual harassment. There is also a distinction to be made between unethical conduct and illegal conduct. Dehlin is certainly guilty of acting extremely unethically. And very possibly of wrongfully terminating Rosebud.

A winning legal case of sexual harassment seems nearly impossible, to me, since there was no “pay for play” sexual agreement at any time. But I am not a lawyer and perhaps a lawyer could make an argument on the evidence that rosebud has. She ultimately decided not to pursue it, which I think was much wiser than Jenn’s decision.

[MsJack]

I used to work in HR and I currently work for a division of law enforcement that often deals with sex crimes. I was also sexually harassed years ago by someone in academia whose name most people on this forum would recognize.

I would say what happened with Rosebud was a form of sexual harassment or misconduct. An unusual case, but there is something very screwed up and wrong about terminating a subordinate because she had a consensual affair with the boss and now he wants to end it and she doesn't. Open Stories Foundation ultimately handled it poorly.

I'm not interested in going down the rabbit hole of the minutiae of that case again though. I only say this to show that I'm not some mindless Dehlin fangirl in my assessment of allegations against Dehlin and his allies (Consiglieri in this case). I'm somebody with a lot of sympathy for victims, but Kamp has badly damaged her credibility here.

[Canadiandude2]

Surely there are court documents and filings as well right? Rulings of the outcome and/or evidence of a settlement?

Yeah I’m just hiding them from you.

Yeah, because that’s the only logical interpretation of what I wrote there that your uncritical brain could possibly come up with. Complete with the

Honestly dude you’re not much better than Danny P.

~

I never implied that you were hiding the court documents. My actual point doesn’t even require such nonsense for me to consider their absence from the discourse to be considered strange.

What I did imply however was that there are some inconvenient details to the relationship that you left neglected to include. This is an example of cherry picking as even a brief description of the power imbalance and firing are important details, which- unlike the court documents, are much easier to provide, at least in general terms.

Would I like the court documents? Sure. But I actually haven’t been able to find any court documents on the subject that I recall from past instances this conflict has occurring here or on other venues. What I do know however is that your TLDR left out the power imbalance between the two; the firing; and the accused’s abuse of procedure and his status at the time that enabled such.

You also neglected to give in at least general terms what the findings, and settlement arrangements were. That there even was a settlement. Did the accused choose to settle? This is an important detail. I could be wrong but I suspect that while some of the accusations were stretched or possibly untrue, that there was enough legitimate evidence given and problematic behaviour revealed so as to incentivize Dehlin to reach a settlement with Rosebud. The same could be said but in reverse for Rosebud- she had just enough evidence so as to successfully make a problematic case for Dehlin- but it had some gaps, inconsistencies, and similar problems to give her team just enough uncertainty that the case’s outcome had it otherwise been dealt with through the courts absent of any settlement.


There are flaws in my argument, and I’m open to being wrong, but if so, then explain why, and be sure to give a more detailed and accurate briefing that doesn’t fail to include the strongest (but logical and evidentiary) arguments for each position.

~

I’ll go back later in the week to prior posts so as to refamiliarize myself with the conflict’s details and major arguments made by either side. But I do know you left some pretty obvious details out, and I’m unimpressed that your response was to mock and evade. Yours was far too charitable explanation re: Dehlin and what he actually did. He and his proponents can either own it, or again, distort, mock, and evade. If the latter- well, this is why- though I participate here- I wouldn’t be keen on recommending this site to my fellow ex and postmo’s. Too much noise sometimes for an examination of the data- and this is the conclusion I’ve come to, even despite believing this forum to be more intellectually engaging than most of exmo Reddit.

[drumdude]

Again, Rosebud herself posted all the primary source documents at the link I provided above. They are posted with her commentary, not mine.

I recommend you take a look if you’re interested in learning more. If you click on it I think you’ll discover it’s a fairly comprehensive archive and has all of the information you claim I left out.

The fact you’re talking about a settlement shows me you didn’t even bother to read what I posted before claiming I am not telling the whole story. It has a timeline with dates and events for you to catch up with.

[Canadiandude2]

Rosebud posted all of her evidence, and then shortly thereafter deleted it. The evidence was reposted here:

http://mormonrosebud.wikidot.com/

The TLDR is John indeed had an emotional affair with Rosebud, as you can see in the text messages. But it wasn’t sexual harassment.

Well, that's your tldr, but others disagreed. in my opinion, a person lost their job because of the actions of a superior with whom they had an affair, and the power imbalance and consequent loss of employment constituted sexual harassment. in my opinion.

There were very strong opinions on both sides of the issue the last time we discussed this.

Just quoting this as further evidence that I’m not the only one who found the tldr deceptive.

As for the settlement- that is just what I recall from my hazy memory of past digging almost a year or more ago. And I’ve been transparent that it’s hazy. Nobody has exactly explained where or what I got wrong in my recollection of the affair. There were arguments and counter arguments about whether Rosebud had to sign a nda if I recall and I think it was Rosebud who made the argument she didn’t have to. That’s the extent of what I remember but I thought there was a settlement mentioned.

People are welcome to correct me. Yeah I’ll look at the posts by Rosebud, particularly if there’s evidence that my memory of the context is off.

But don’t play coy. The tldr was off enough that even my hazy memory thought it sus, as it pretty much put the situation in as best of a light as a Dehlin-apologist could put it without denying all culpability.

Not a lawyer @drumdude? Then you could’ve at least been a lil more modest and honest prior, as to limits of your understanding the definition before declaring whether sexual *harassment occurred or not.

[drumdude]

Well, that's your tldr, but others disagreed. in my opinion, a person lost their job because of the actions of a superior with whom they had an affair, and the power imbalance and consequent loss of employment constituted sexual harassment. in my opinion.

There were very strong opinions on both sides of the issue the last time we discussed this.

Just quoting this as further evidence that I’m not the only one who found the tldr deceptive.

As for the settlement- that is just what I recall from my hazy memory of past digging almost a year or more ago. And I’ve been transparent that it’s hazy. Nobody has exactly explained where or what I got wrong in my recollection of the affair. There were arguments and counter arguments about whether Rosebud had to sign a nda if I recall and I think it was Rosebud who made the argument she didn’t have to. That’s the extent of what I remember but I thought there was a settlement mentioned.

People are welcome to correct me. Yeah I’ll look at the posts by Rosebud, particularly if there’s evidence that my memory of the context is off.

But don’t play coy. The tldr was off enough that even my hazy memory thought it sus, as it pretty much put the situation in as best of a light as a Dehlin-apologist could put it without denying all culpability.

Not a lawyer @drumdude? Then you could’ve at least been a lil more modest and honest prior, as to limits of your understanding the definition before declaring whether sexual *harassment occurred or not.

Thank you for changing sexual abuse to sexual harassment. They are not the same. I think legal sexual harassment is also not the same as what people are throwing around as sexual harassment. I’m happy to be proven wrong if anyone can find case law which says otherwise.

You can see how easily Dehlin gets his name dragged through the mud with these slip ups.

There was even a website calling him a pedophile and rapist at one point.

[Canadiandude2]

Thank you for changing sexual abuse to sexual harassment. They are not the same. I think legal sexual harassment is also not the same as what people are throwing around as sexual harassment. I’m happy to be proven wrong if anyone can find case law which says otherwise.

You can see how easily Dehlin gets his name dragged through the mud with these slip ups.

There was even a website calling him a pedophile and rapist at one point.

Yup. No prob. That’s why I not only changed it, but used a * to be accountable for the change, as I figured it was an important enough edit to change the meaning and wanted to own that fact.

And thankyou for deleting the prior baseless attack. As can be seen, my first post here was none too impressed by Rosebud’s post and Jen Kamp.

Others have appropriately challenged me on here, and I’ve challenged others appropriately back as to my confusion and dissatisfaction with the messiness and ‘noise’ in much of the data of it all.

I’m thankful for the data you shared. Truly. I just became cranky and suspicious of your motives (*still am if I’m being totally honest) when your tdlr neglected to include important details, and you responded the way that you did, despite the gaps in your explanation and legal knowledge.

I have gaps too. I’m trying to be accountable for em. I try to honest about them. The fact that people though may be stretching the truth (dunno I’d have to look at each claim) as to the nature of everything he’s done does not absolve us of being completely honest, transparent, and condemning of the very real sexual harassment, and abuses of power he did actually do- as best we can tell from the evidence.

These weren’t mere ‘slip ups’ in my view, as again that seems like a coy attempt at diminishing the harm and abuse of authority actually committed. My forgetting a new colleague’s new pronouns is a ‘slip up’ -especially if followed by an apology and earnest practice of getting it right in the future and correcting my mistake.

Rosebud was fired as part of the outcome of the event and Dehlin has too often tried to gaslight or play victim when others try holding him to account. (Once- it was either on reddit or Twitter- he even attempted to frame Benjamin Park of all people as somehow unjustly attacking him)

I can be critical of some of Rosebud and Jenn Kamp’s respective behaviour without giving an inch for any argument that minimizes what harm Dehlin has actually accomplished. What bad-faith antics he does actually employ.

There are enough educated, ( *and actually progressive) critics and *educators among mo, never-mo, and exmo scholars out there in my opinion that are much worthier of our headspace.

[Canadiandude2]

You can see how easily Dehlin gets his name dragged through the mud with these slip ups.

There was even a website calling him a pedophile and rapist at one point.

Oh. You mean my slip ups.

…

Ok?

My dude, have we established the fact your tldr neglected to include the abuse of power and differentials of power and outcomes between the involved parties ? If so great. Moving on. You’re attention to detail is curiously very agentive where and when it wants to be heh.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]