If plates then God

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MG 2.0
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Re: If plates then God

Post by MG 2.0 »

Morley wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:27 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:39 pm
That’s where we differ. As I look at the Monet I see the whole as being ‘good fruit’. The gospel of Jesus Christ is what it’s all about. He who was crucified for our sins, rose the third day, and lives today and guides and directs His church in order to bring souls back into God’s presence.

I do not view that as toxic.
Now you're mixing Monet and Kinkade.

You've repeatedly referred to the perceived mistakes made by the LDS Church, or the anachronisms in The Book of Mormon, as being like blotches that are unappealing when you're up close but look beautiful when you step back and look at the whole picture. Then you use Monet's work as an example.

Monet didn't paint ugly blotches or make what looked like unfortunate mistakes that, when taken taken as a whole, joined to make a larger composition that looked beautiful. His work is compelling whether seen up close or from afar. There are no questionable blotches. For the most part, you don't even have to step back to get the whole picture.

This is generally true for any piece of art that I can recall. Small, ugly parts don't usually combine to create a gigantic, beautiful, splendid whole. Maybe Huckelberry, or somebody else, can correct me on this.

It's irritating and offensive when you repeatedly misrepresent and misuse a discipline (and a painter) that I have some familiarity with to bungle your argument. All I'm asking you to do is to find a more appropriate analogy.
We may be overblowing this. My point was/is that a painting…and with Monet it’s rather obvious…that he uses individual strokes of paint, sometimes even mixing the paint hues right on the canvas, to end up with a composite that becomes the whole. I wouldn’t call those ‘blotches’ or brush strokes “ugly” I would just say that they are necessary even if on their own they would not have much in the way of meaning. I suppose Monet is not alone in that way. It’s that some of his paintings seem to stand out more so in this respect to me.

I see a comparison in this with looking at the greater whole of humanity and history and science and religion…etc., in trying to get a glimmer of some sort of an overarching design or purpose. But that whole is composed of many varied hues and shades of good and evil, light and darkness, love and hate, etc.

I would expect to find that. I would expect to find that in Mormonism. I would expect that in the way the restoration evolved and continues to evolve in a world that is also evolving.

There are going to be some dark hues mixed in with the light in LDS history and its leaders. There will be shades of gray and bright patches that stand out against the shadows. Much of this due to the agency of human beings doing great things and human beings doing dumb things.

It’s all part of the ‘masterpiece’ that the Great Artist is creating in which all of His ‘brushstrokes’ or in some cases blotches play their own part.

Anyway, I don’t want to keep harping on this but I hope this might help you understand where I’m coming from on Monet…he being an example one who created magnificent art from individual strokes/dabs of paint exquisitely placed where needed.

By the way, just as with renowned artists creating many works of art I think God’s plan includes a number of paintings that when all put together in a collection end up in an eternal gallery where all paintings composed of their own brush strokes, blotches, and dabs of paint will all be valued and find a place of beauty in that spacial (non spacial?) gallery.

God’s Plan is BIG. In my opinion. And I think the CofJCofLDS plays an important part in that plan. As do the curators and the artists that paint and create works of art (unrelated to the purposes and mission of the LDS Church) that are all part of God’s Art Gallery.

Regards,
MG
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: If plates then God

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

SFMY.

:roll:

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
MG 2.0
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Re: If plates then God

Post by MG 2.0 »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:02 am
SFMY.

:roll:

- Doc
SUMO.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: If plates then God

Post by MG 2.0 »

honorentheos wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:16 am
Hey MG -

So. Yeah. [The book] sucked…
But I appreciate that you read it and had an opinion. Even a strong one…”It’s garbage!”

Good enough for Oxford Press though. If that means anything.

Regards,
MG
honorentheos
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Re: If plates then God

Post by honorentheos »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:13 am
honorentheos wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:16 am
Hey MG -

So. Yeah. [The book] sucked…
But I appreciate that you read it and had an opinion. Even a strong one…”It’s garbage!”

Good enough for Oxford Press though. If that means anything.

Regards,
MG
Remember this thread?
honorentheos wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2023 6:22 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:28 pm
honor and malkie, at the end of the day as we look back through the lens/fog of history we rely upon the written word and testimonies of contemporary witnesses. Joseph and his associates had to go through learning curves as did other early members of the church.

Joseph’s comment,that I referenced before, that he knew that God knew what had transpired is very revealing. That along with the ‘sincerity factor’ that Joseph demonstrated throughout his life brings us to a place where we either trust what he said or we don’t.
MG,

He lied to his father-in-law and eloped with Emma. He lied to Emma and cheated on her repeatedly, inventing a religious requirement to cover it up.

The Book of Mormon is clearly detached from American pre-Columbian history. It's clearly based on racist 19th century beliefs about the Native Americans.

The Church codified the worst of the racial prejudices in American history to the point it held onto them over a decade past the time the Supreme Court ruled against state laws criminalizing interracial marriage. It stands today against equal rights, it gives cover to anti-science positions.

You're right. We choose to trust what Joseph, and by extension the LDS church, said. Or we don't.

The evidence, however, is anything but peripheral to that choice. One chooses to acknowledge it and allow it to inform ones choice...or one doesn't.
It's like 50 First Dates...
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Morley
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Re: If plates then God

Post by Morley »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:00 am
I see a comparison in this with looking at the greater whole of humanity and history and science and religion…etc., in trying to get a glimmer of some sort of an overarching design or purpose. But that whole is composed of many varied hues and shades of good and evil, light and darkness, love and hate, etc.

I would expect to find that. I would expect to find that in Mormonism. I would expect that in the way the restoration evolved and continues to evolve in a world that is also evolving.

There are going to be some dark hues mixed in with the light in LDS history and its leaders. There will be shades of gray and bright patches that stand out against the shadows. Much of this due to the agency of human beings doing great things and human beings doing dumb things.

It’s all part of the ‘masterpiece’ that the Great Artist is creating in which all of His ‘brushstrokes’ or in some cases blotches play their own part.

Anyway, I don’t want to keep harping on this but I hope this might help you understand where I’m coming from on Monet…he being an example one who created magnificent art from individual strokes/dabs of paint exquisitely placed where needed.

By the way, just as with renowned artists creating many works of art I think God’s plan includes a number of paintings that when all put together in a collection end up in an eternal gallery where all paintings composed of their own brush strokes, blotches, and dabs of paint will all be valued and find a place of beauty in that spacial (non spacial?) gallery.

God’s Plan is BIG. In my opinion. And I think the CofJCofLDS plays an important part in that plan. As do the curators and the artists that paint and create works of art (unrelated to the purposes and mission of the LDS Church) that are all part of God’s Art Gallery.

Regards,
MG

Image

Thomas Kinkade, Fairy Garden.
honorentheos
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Re: If plates then God

Post by honorentheos »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:13 am
Good enough for Oxford Press though. If that means anything.

Regards,
MG
honorentheos wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:16 am
It was the first of many instances to come of you expressing your opinion of a source that proved to have little more to it than it evoked a feeling of doing heavy lifting so you shared it with limited to no internal understanding yourself.
honorentheos
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Re: If plates then God

Post by honorentheos »

To add: Hardy's book is to literature what the Dales' Interpreter article is to statistics. It's meant to seem impressive but relies on the audience not understanding the subject enough to see how bad it is in contrast to the legitimate use of the tools being employed. And Marcus, please correct my comparison if I butchered the categorization of the Dales' collection of blotches.
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canpakes
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Re: If plates then God

Post by canpakes »

honorentheos wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:48 am
I'm reminded of when the Phoenix Art Museum hosted a traveling Rembrandt exhibit. The opportunity to look closely at the work of a true master is something I didn't appreciate enough before this.
Ooh, that was quite a while ago, if I’m remembering correctly.

Thanks for triggering that memory; somewhere I have a little book of Rembrandt sketches purchased when we went to the exhibition; now I’ve got to go dig it up.
Marcus
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Re: If plates then God

Post by Marcus »

honorentheos wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:30 am
To add: Hardy's book is to literature what the Dales' Interpreter article is to statistics. It's meant to seem impressive but relies on the audience not understanding the subject enough to see how bad it is in contrast to the legitimate use of the tools being employed. And Marcus, please correct my comparison if I butchered the categorization of the Dales' collection of blotches.
No, I think you got it just right.
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