If plates then God

[I Have Questions]

Any other explanation of Mormon apologists' activity that assumes that they seriously intend to convert sceptical non-believers requires us to assume a degree of psychological abnormality on the apologists' part that is ruled out by Occam's Razor.

What they are doing is clearly just trying to stop ordinary chapel-going Mormons worrying about what the critics are saying, and feeling that they ought to take a serious look at it one of these days. Just pray, pay, and obey, like Mom and Dad did, and raise your kids the same way, and everything will be fine.

That's pretty much it. If skeptical non-believers are actually converted, my bet is that most of the time they were already leaning toward converting and they basically needed one more little push.

Is there any example of a skeptical non-believer ever being persuaded by the story and apologetic arguments about the plates? Or the Book of Mormon? I’ve seen people “converted” because they want the community, or the sense of structure and worth that a calling brings, or because they’re bereaved and want to believe they haven’t really lost a loved one, or because they like the attention of the missionaries, or they see an opportunity for power and authority that they don’t have in their life, and obviously some convert for access to potential victims, or for some other secular reason. But never have I seen a conversion because they were persuaded about the plates. Most converts just don’t think too hard about it. And most leaders and members don’t encourage potential converts to think to hard about it.

Given the widening gap between total membership number and head count in the pews on any given Sunday, I’d suggest the process currently being used for conversion doesn’t work in the medium to long term, even if it can convert people in the short term.

The only evidence for the existence of plates is that 11 family and friends of Joseph Smith said he had them. That’s it. Bernie Madoff had more people than that saying his investment scheme was real.

[Kishkumen]

I heartily disagree the plates are a red herring. Sure, the Book of Mormon as we have it was produced through the seer stone, but the plates--or at least the stories surrounding them--are an essential part of the mythos. The plates and what they represent symbolize how valuable the Book of Mormon is.

Going back to reread the beginning of the thread, this is the view I most resonate with.

[Kishkumen]

For the translation, no. But mark what I'm saying: the plates are necessary for the mythos.

Think in terms of myths, legends, and folklore, and even real life. Great figures are often associated with iconic objects. Moses and the tablets. Aaron's rod. Arthur and Excalibur. Wizards and their wands. Christians often adorn their houses and bodies with crosses and crucifixes. European royalty wear crowns and carry scepters. In the final break from the Lamanites, Nephi takes the plates of brass, the Liahona, and the sword of Laban (2 Ne. 5:12-14). We could multiply examples practically forever.

So, we have gold plates--gold being a precious metal and has long served a symbol of something's value. The plates existence was revealed to Joseph by an angel. He had an initial problem obtaining the plates because he had pecuniary motive. He had further problems obtaining them because he wasn't accompanied by the right person. Once he did get the plates, other people tried to steal them, in turn requiring sometimes extraordinary measures and even supernatural intervention to keep them safe. The loss of the 116 manuscript pages led to the plates being taken away temporarily and the permanent loss of the Interpreters. Joseph then had to obtain divine forgiveness to get the plates back. Once the translation is done and the plates are shown to God's chosen witnesses, they were taken back and now they will remain forever safe. This is the stuff legends and myths are made of!

Compare to: "One day I put a stone in a hat and this is what I saw. End of story."

The plates--and especially the stories surrounding them--gives the Book of Mormon an intensified importance it might not otherwise have.

This is great stuff, Tim! It is so great to have you here.

[tagriffy]

Thanks!

[Res Ipsa]

I would imagine that at the end of the day you would also chuckle under your breath at those that believe Jesus died but then lives again in the heavens.

You miss the point for at least the second time this morning. I don't chuckle under my breath at resurrection myths or plates myths. I chuckle out loud at you personally MG, for your embarrassing reasoning to justify the plates and your arrogance about the whole thing. Instead of just having faith, you return time and time again to the barn for a fresh shovel-full of horse crap, thinking this next time you're bringing the good stuff.

So again, as I’ve said multiple times now, “How wide the divide”.

The only possible divide here is those capable of basic logic (us) and those who aren't (you). The fact that you believe isn't that big of a deal. The problem is your awful argumentation, lack of self-awareness, and nearly complete obliviousness to how insignificant Mormonism is to the rest of the world.

What I don’t fully understand...doing stuff here what almost seems 24/7 (a bit of exaggerating). You would think that she, you, and others would find time better well spent doing so many other things rather than dissing the church, its prophets, and its members to some extent.

There are lots of things that you don't understand in even the most rudimentary way let alone fully. That something can't be explained to you isn't disturbing to anyone in the least.

There’s a lot of good fiction out there. Family activity and excursions and the like. Yeah, I know you probably do stuff unrelated to thinking and posting stuff against the church…but you could do so much more!

Don't you think that having the restored gospel in all its glory would give you something better to do than argue with apostates on the Internet? Don't you think you could do much more? Visit temple square again, spend another day with the grandkids, go on splits with the missionaries? Feed the hungry? My parents didn't spend time on the Internet arguing with apostates. They were temple workers and donated part of their week in retirement to church welfare distro; they also did obsessive genealogy. Do you have your family tree mapped back to Adam? If not, what'ya here for?

I have 3628 posts. (Don't get excited High Spy) You have 3626 posts. I registered in 2020 and you registered in 2021. So who is the one with the problem?

Amen

[Gadianton]

Going back to reread the beginning of the thread, this is the view I most resonate with.

For the sake of enriching our understanding, who was it that doesn't take that view?

The contrary view is (and I may have to refine this), a) there were no plates b) joseph (and company?) wrote the book from their imagination c) accepting both a) and b), believers (for various reasons) should and would still believe, participate in Church, and in general, continue their Mormon lives exactly as they would if they believed the official version.

Does this describe anybody? I have my doubts. But I could be wrong, because I don't know that much about Book of Mormon scholarship.

I do know that the new MI is postmodern leaning, and infuriate the old guard for analyzing the Book of Mormon as 19th century literature, or refusing to clearly state that the Book of Mormon is historical. The apologists seem to be go by what they see these kinds of positions imply rather than what these scholars have actually said. I seem to recall there being a signature-books writer who believed something close to this, but my position is, not only do I agree with tagriffy, but that everyone agrees with tagriffy.