If scrolls, then Ra and Rudy then nah.

[dantana]

So, the apologetic of - the plates were taken up to heaven because if they were allowed to remain it would be too much evidence and everyone would become a Morm. Ok then. I've always felt this argument a bit weak.

Let's pretend the Book of Mormon plates were plowed up by a farmer, translated by qualified experts and now in the Smithsonian. Some of the things the records detail seem to checkout - Lamanites have Hebrew DNA, horses, metallurgy, Cureloms etc. That still doesn't mean - God did it.

It's still just the writings and ramblings of a people and their particular god tradition. Maybe Nephi is just another of the countless humans who woke up one morning and declared - I talked to god last night, and he told me to tell you ...

Even if J. Smith had presented the plates to the world, they exist now, and he wasn't a schmuck, I, et al. still wouldn't believe in deity based existence theory. In the rest of the world, the adherents to non-Abrahamic religions would not be swayed.

Anyway, why should the Book of Mormon's deity theme carry any more weight than that of other ancient peoples writings of their gods? Some of these actual extant relics.

If scrolls, then Ra. Right?

Notes:

• If this has already been brought up in the other thread, please forgive me.
• I'm not Shulem, so I have no idea what I'm talking about as to anything ancient Egyptian.
• I'm also not Kish so, no idea as to extant relics of other ancient religions.

[Rivendale]

The idea of not allowing evidence is ridiculous. Satan supposedly had complete knowledge of God's power and still used his free will to oppose him. Throughout history their are testimonies of angelic beings visiting people and yet the rebelled also. God either plays favorites to individual people or he already knows which piece of evidence is too much. It seems the deck is stacked.

[dantana]

The idea of not allowing evidence is ridiculous. Satan supposedly had complete knowledge of God's power and still used his free will to oppose him. Throughout history their are testimonies of angelic beings visiting people and yet the rebelled also. God either plays favorites to individual people or he already knows which piece of evidence is too much. It seems the deck is stacked.

Good point Rivendale. Wiki says 100 billion people have existed on earth so far. That puts the numbers for the 1/3 cast out at 50 b. 50 b. said thanks but no thanks God.

I'll take unbelievable nonsense for $1000 Alex.

So, yeah, god doesn't want his followers to just have blind faith so he knows he has to give them a little bit of a starting point, but not too much. Hence the witnesses. And to get the evidence weight just right he chose a family of illiterate hillbillies to testify they certainly saw and hefted something that was prob. plates.

[Philo Sofee]

Well, the difference is that Ra is actually real, and has direct influence and seeability, and doesn't care if being seen takes away your free agency. Ra is the sun, so whether scrolls or not, there is Ra.

[Philo Sofee]

The idea of not allowing evidence is ridiculous. Satan supposedly had complete knowledge of God's power and still used his free will to oppose him. Throughout history their are testimonies of angelic beings visiting people and yet the rebelled also. God either plays favorites to individual people or he already knows which piece of evidence is too much. It seems the deck is stacked.

Good point Rivendale. Wiki says 100 billion people have existed on earth so far. That puts the numbers for the 1/3 cast out at 50 b. 50 b. said thanks but no thanks God.

I'll take unbelievable nonsense for $1000 Alex.

So, yeah, god doesn't want his followers to just have blind faith so he knows he has to give them a little bit of a starting point, but not too much. Hence the witnesses. And to get the evidence weight just right he chose a family of illiterate hillbillies to testify they certainly saw and hefted something that was prob. plates.

A most interesting way to view it, thanks for sharing.

[Shulem]

Never mind the plates, I don't give a damn about the gold. Mormon Jesus can have his gold. But show me the hole in the ground from whence the gold book was buried. Show me the remnants of the broken stone box that Moroni meticulously constructed and set in place firmly atop the hill in which the artifacts were preserved for some 1500 years! Show me that Goddamn f-ing stone box and the very spot of ground in which Smith should have marked with a long stake to mark the place where Moroni once stood.

Show me the hallowed spot of ground in which Moroni prayed and hid the plates! I want to examine the box, just a single piece will do. Sift the contents of the entire hill until a piece is found and let's examine it! Or is it that there never was a stone box and therefore no remnants remain to this day?

[Shulem]

Wait, you can keep the plates but the stone box goes with me! God hath said that no evidence shall be left behind. Hand me the box, please.

[Shulem]

If scrolls, then Ra. Right?

If plates, then a box. Right?

[Shulem]

You can't have a dinosaur without fossils.

Where is the stone box? Show me the evidence or I'll sue you.

[Shulem]

Anyway, why should the Book of Mormon's deity theme carry any more weight than that of other ancient peoples writings of their gods? Some of these actual extant relics.

My friend, listen up -- Shulem knows. We have physical evidence to the gods of genuine ancient religions and a great deal of weight to that effect! Artifacts galore!

But Mormonism with gold plates and a stone box? We have nothing. No evidence, nothing tangible to examine, just the weightless version of a story which Smith uttered out of hat while his scribes wrote it down on paper. That's it! There is nothing more to show.