a tangent from Gadiantons quiry about fearing judgement

[huckelberry]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xE3Cs_nwNXs
I stumbled upon this presentation about presenting Christianity to a Muslim from a link a different discussion here had. A nice looking woman says this is a good example of how it should be done with love and truth. What I heard set me thinking on perhaps a different path.

There is a Muslim women being addressed by a man in preacher voice who asks her how her sins can be forgiven. She proposes repentance and not repeating the sin. He asks how do the sins get paid for? She proposes that she does and he pounces. Do you mean you try to earn it, unsuspecting the crime against dogma she is committing answers yes. I am afraid all I could hear was a self satisfied sense of superiority in his quick rebuttal with Protestant doctrine that we must lean solely on the righteousness and sacrifice of Jesus to pay for our sins.(what ever paying for sins might mean, ?)

I am not an expert on Islam but many years ago perhaps with curiosity aroused by some Bahia friends I read the Koran with care and respect,(English translation of course). It is very clear that in the Koran God is understood to be merciful and welcomes people with mercy and forgiveness. I am sure the Muslim woman thought repentance could work only by way of Gods mercy and whatever works she would do would be thankful response. This is exactly the same pattern as the Christian fellow, repentance receives of the goodness of God and response to that gift.

Instead of a helpful presentation of faith I strongly suspect the Muslim woman shrugged her shoulders wondering what in the world that fellow thought he was going on about. The Christian preacher learned absolutely nothing about the women instead he applied his negative assumptions and probably built walls. If that woman were to become a Christian believer her own curiosity would have to make an end run around the blockade of this presentation.
//
Well I am not an expert on how to present the Christian hope to non Christians. I do think that If Jesus is a foundation for Gods forgiveness and that we are to share the forgiveness we receive then a critical part of approaching non Christians is to respect them and be willing to learn from them. Yes a divine Jesus establishing a covenant of forgiveness based upon living and dying with us is more involved with us than the more abstract version of Gods gift in Gods mercy expressed in the Koran. But that greater involvement asks us to reach further in the sharing of gods forgiveness and love.

I do not think this observation offers any clear quick fix. There is a history of terrible Christian errors in the treatment of non Christians to be aware of and leave behind. Just as an internal starting point I was thinking that even though many Christians hope salvation and forgiveness extends beyond believers Christians should take courage and ask God in regular prayer to do just that. (even if or perhaps because we believe God would desire such extension of mercy to the wide range of the human family) Perhaps our human actions can take a lead from the things we ask for in prayer.

[Morley]

I'm curious, Huck. Since you've looked at Islam a bit, what is it that you imagine that Christianity has to offer a Muslim?

[Imwashingmypirate]

One of the churches I visit strongly believes that if you are not Christian you will not be saved. They pray for their families to find Jesus so they can meet again.

It made me feel a sadness.

I do not believe Jesus is God but apparently Christians believe Jesus is God.

A different church talked about how God loves everyone and everyone is saved no matter what they do just by believing in Christ which is essentially the same vision but something about how it was said felt different.

I grew up believing repentance was a necessity and without it I was evil. Even though I didn't know what I was resending for. I was always repenting and always thinking I was a sinner and I wasn't good enough and no matter what, I was bad. I literally didn't do anything to be bad but it was built into me.

I can visualise that God would love everyone because I'd love my kids even if they were bad kids. And I can visualise that God already knows everything and still loves us.

I can't work out how Jesus dying was our salvation in relation to sin. I don't understand the whole sacrifice thing. I think Jesus would only be a sacrifice to God for us if we had a relationship with him and we felt overwhelming sadness and suffered for his suffering but he supposidly suffered so we didn't have to suffer. So then it is his sacrifice. But how does that transfer to us receiving forgiveness for our shortcomings.

Why tell us to repent if we are already forgiven and repentance isnt necessary?

My personal understanding is that Jesus had shown us that life doesn't end at death. And so that's how we are saved. Because believing is magic.

I didn't really understand the point of this post. I've been out of sinc with humans for a long time. I kind of feel like what is being expressed is that Islam and Christianity essentially have the same perspective. But obviously Islam doesn't require the sacrifice of Jesus. I read some of the Qur'an when I was in secondary school. I was a minority there. The school was predominantly Muslim. They didn't express much different really. They were generally nicer than my experience with pedominantly white schools. They liked that my Mormonism was similar to their way.

I did once have a conversation where I was told that if a Muslim asks me 3 times to convert and I say no 3 times they can murder me, which freaked me out.

[Imwashingmypirate]

I'm curious, Huck. Since you've looked at Islam a bit, what is it that you imagine that Christianity has to offer a Muslim?

Would looking into Islam mean that a person is assuming their faith has something to offer to Islam? Kinda feels like it would be the other way round, you'd be looking at another faith to see what it has to offer you? Right?

I doubt any faith can offer anything to another faith generally, when that faith has a hard wired set of beliefs. You aren't likely to find a Muslim who believes Jesus has saved them without them having converted. You can however be a Christian and believe that the Islamic prophet is also a prophet of God.

[huckelberry]

I'm curious, Huck. Since you've looked at Islam a bit, what is it that you imagine that Christianity has to offer a Muslim?

Hi Morley, your question created a couple of quick almost knee jerk reactions in my mind. I thought I would wait at least a bit in case I thought better of them.

The same are still there. First to my mind would be escape from the rigidities of ancient law. Larger role for individual and growing understanding of moral possibilities and social possibilities. The second would be the person of Jesus, his encouragement and call. He presents a personal connection to Gods mercy, worth sharing.

Yea there seems to be a significant tide these days among Christians running in the opposite way. I am complaining but I do not believe that time is short.

Then there is the contribution of presenting bad examples within Christianities past. Islam has bad examples too. Perhaps some historical perspective on mutual human limitations and failings can be shared

I should extend that last thought a touch. Both Islam and Christianity have a vision of remaking the world into a more human place. Both have failed is some important ways and succeeded in some. If there is any hope in the project it is some way off. However some cooperation instead of war between these two ancient traditions would be helpful.

[huckelberry]

I'm curious, Huck. Since you've looked at Islam a bit, what is it that you imagine that Christianity has to offer a Muslim?

Would looking into Islam mean that a person is assuming their faith has something to offer to Islam? Kinda feels like it would be the other way round, you'd be looking at another faith to see what it has to offer you? Right?

I doubt any faith can offer anything to another faith generally, when that faith has a hard wired set of beliefs. You aren't likely to find a Muslim who believes Jesus has saved them without them having converted. You can however be a Christian and believe that the Islamic prophet is also a prophet of God.

Imwashingmy pirate, I think there is reason to be curious about other people without expecting something to be offered. However I see nothing wrong with a person of one faith wondering what might be offered by another. I think that there is the possibility of wisdom in all human experience.

I do not believe any faith actually has a hardwired set of beliefs. Some people might pretend it does but that does not prevent change from happening.(and a lot of variety jostling around at any one time)

[Morley]

I'm curious, Huck. Since you've looked at Islam a bit, what is it that you imagine that Christianity has to offer a Muslim?

Would looking into Islam mean that a person is assuming their faith has something to offer to Islam? Kinda feels like it would be the other way round, you'd be looking at another faith to see what it has to offer you? Right?

I doubt any faith can offer anything to another faith generally, when that faith has a hard wired set of beliefs. You aren't likely to find a Muslim who believes Jesus has saved them without them having converted. You can however be a Christian and believe that the Islamic prophet is also a prophet of God.

I don't know of any Christian branch or sect that recognizes Muhammed as a prophet, the way Jesus is acknowledged as one by Islam.

Followers of Islam often see Christianity as unnecessarily complicated. It's an oversimplification, but Muslims don't recognize the need for any saints or saviors to intercede for them to God--and there's no three-in-one godhead. Most Muslims believe a good Christian or Jew will make it into heaven--no ordinances required. Most Christians don't believe the same to be true for even the best of Muslims.

As I understand it, Huck was suggesting a different tact tack* should be taken in attempting to convert Muslims. In response, I was asking Huck what there is about any Christian theology that might be appealing to a Muslim.

I'd ask the same of Mormons. Many in the Church think that there are many similarities between Islam and the CoJCoLDS. I'm not seeing it.

Other than to fit in culturally, I can't see why any Muslim would ever convert to either Christianity or Mormonism.

*edit. Too funny.

[huckelberry]

I don't know of any Christian branch or sect that recognizes Muhammed as a prophet, the way Jesus is acknowledged as one by Islam.

Followers of Islam often see Christianity as unnecessarily complicated. It's an oversimplification, but Muslims don't recognize the need for any saints or saviors to intercede for them to God--and there's no three-in-one godhead. Most Muslims believe a good Christian or Jew will make it into heaven--no ordinances required. Most Christians don't believe the same to be true for even the best of Muslims.

As I understand it, Huck was suggesting a different tact should be taken in attempting to convert Muslims. In response, I was asking Huck what there is about any Christian theology that might be appealing to a Muslim.

I'd ask the same of Mormons. Many in the Church think that there are many similarities between Islam and the CoJCoLDS. I'm not seeing it.

Other than to fit in culturally, I can't see why any Muslim would ever convert to either Christianity or Mormonism.

Morley I am probably asking for a more fundamental change in relationship. Not one that is focused upon converting Muslims.

You have a point about complication of theology which may have limited attraction or perhaps value. However there is complication of Islamic law and practice.

[Physics Guy]

This is why I think it's hard to say much about religion in general: religions are different. They're not even very close to being the same kind of thing. They don't just offer different answers to the same questions. They care about different questions.

Christianity has all this tricky theology, and a lot of tricky psychological gymnastics about trying to be truly humble and repentant, without being complacent, but also without relying upon your own strength. In Christianity practically any correct practice or belief has serious errors right next to it, into which one can easily fall. Christianity is mostly about individuals, however. Even in places and times where states were explicitly Christian or churches had political power, church and state and individual piety were recognized as distinct things which could be separated. Saints could flourish in pagan societies, while ruling Popes could be corrupt or incompetent.

Islam is in contrast so different that a Christian might wonder whether Islam is even a religion at all—and Muslims could wonder the same in reverse. Islamic theology is simple and has never been anywhere near as controversial among Muslims as Christian theology has been among Christians. The spiritual obligations and goals for individual Muslims are also much more straightforwardly attainable than the Christian paradoxes. Islam pays enormous attention, however, to how society runs. The big divisions in Islam are and have been legal and political rather than theological—not just implicitly, with theology exploited for political ends, but quite explicitly. The schism between Sunni and Shia was and is explicitly one between partisans of different candidates for the leadership of the Muslim community in succession to the Prophet. Religious authority figures in Islam are often called clerics but they are not in any sense priests or pastors: they are, quite literally and explicitly, lawyers.

Christians and Muslims can find common ground in talking about religious belief and practice, but only up to a fairly early point. Past that point the discussion isn't like a debate between Ford and Toyota owners, but more like a faltering chat between a goldfish fancier and a Thoroughbred breeder. Yes, we both like animals. Some kinds of animals. Um.

[Morley]

The same are still there. First to my mind would be escape from the rigidities of ancient law. Larger role for individual and growing understanding of moral possibilities and social possibilities. The second would be the person of Jesus, his encouragement and call. He presents a personal connection to Gods mercy, worth sharing.

Most of these so-called 'rigidities of ancient law' are cultural, rather than religious. An example that's close to my heart right now is what's going on in Iran, where women are rejecting the imposition of the universal requirement for wearing the hijab. Citing what they say is Sharia Law, the Mullahs want all women in the country to wear a headscarf. Women are rebelling to point of being willing to be hauled off to the infamous Evin prison to be tortured and killed. This requirement is a cultural artifact, disguised as a religious obligation. The people of the country know better. Even the clerics know better, though they pretend otherwise. (By the way, a woman in Iran who converted to Christianity would still need to wear the hijab.)

To bring this closer to home, Mormons have their white shirts in church, one earring in each ear, and no beards at BYU. All cultural bowlship disguised as piety.