Vogel video on Book of Mormon geography

[dan vogel]

I posted a new video today: “Did Lehi’s Ship Land in South America?” In this video, I discuss the early church tradition of Lehi’s ship landing on the western coast of South America, focusing on two manuscript copies of a purported revelation to Joseph Smith stating that Lehi landed at thirty degrees south latitude in Chile. I also explore attempts to deny Joseph Smith’s authorship of the revelation by apologists who want to limit Book of Mormon events to North or Central America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx2ijUSwuPk

[Shulem]

I have it on my things to do list, thank you. So many things to do...

You do realize that Joseph Smith was known to exaggerate and lie from time to time and more often in order to cover his tracks? He had things to hide, whether girls behind barns or narrow necks in which to caress and cross his hands speedily whereby he would loosen the panties along those narrow strips in which he sought to uncover. Smith could strip geography and keep count as quick as he could ride a horse or a woman!

Just because Smith said something or someone said something that he may have said must be taken carefully and considered a lie. Smith spent his entire life lying. He was an expert liar. The best!

Joseph Smith was a master at fooling EVERYONE, including you my friend, and me too. But no more.

[Philo Sofee]

I posted a new video today: “Did Lehi’s Ship Land in South America?” In this video, I discuss the early church tradition of Lehi’s ship landing on the western coast of South America, focusing on two manuscript copies of a purported revelation to Joseph Smith stating that Lehi landed at thirty degrees south latitude in Chile. I also explore attempts to deny Joseph Smith’s authorship of the revelation by apologists who want to limit Book of Mormon events to North or Central America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx2ijUSwuPk

I'm looking very forward to seeing this one! Thanks for the heads up Dan.

[Shulem]

Okay, I couldn't resist and watched straight through, nonstop, to the end.

I enjoyed Vogel's smooth approach and steadiness. Good presentation and the visual effects were well done and it was not too long. The presentation led to a conclusion which spells certain trouble for faithful Mormons who rely upon the Book of Mormon as a genuine historical work and a revelation from God to Joseph Smith. It's trouble for believers but not necessarily the critics such as myself who have another theory about where Joseph Smith visualized Lehi landed.

It seems Vogel is from a school of thought that if Joseph Smith said something then that automatically makes it true. Vogel fails to address the possibility that Smith may have simply lied about anything and everything or that the Pratts simply made it up and Smith went along with it. In my view, that is Vogel's weakness and makes his limited overall presentation incomplete. Vogel only takes into considerations the popular theories of Mesoamerica and Heartland and pays no mind to Delmarva which is a snake that will bite the nose of those who have been indoctrinated by arguments posed by apologists and traditional views.

I'm absolutely 100% convinced that Smith visualized Lehi landing on the southern tip of Delmarva, notwithstanding what he or his companions may have said after publication. I'm also absolutely convinced that Smith visualized Cumorah in New York as being only a few hundred miles from the point of Lehi's first inheritance which was not too far from Nephi's city and temple which was built in his day.

Bottom line, from the moment Lehi landed on the peninsula of Delmarva, Smith was excited about getting Moroni to Cumorah in which he could get the plates. THAT was the goal! The geography within the text is committed and devoted to the sole purpose of getting Moroni to Cumorah where he would pay final homage to the grave of his father Mormon and bury the plates and end the story.

[Shulem]

It can be argued that Joseph Smith did not want to discuss the location of Book of Mormon geography solely on the basis that he never discussed it or published statements to that effect in which he formally claimed to author specific information about the geography such as the narrow neck and how the land north of it led to Cumorah. Smith had everyday of his ministry to publish statements about Chile and South America in his personal journal or in the periodicals published by the Mormons. What came in Times and Seasons 1842 were journalistic afterthoughts and ideas to link Book of Mormon history to those places -- it was only a matter of convenience. When Smith gave a revelation and wanted something known he would fix his name to it and punctuate his sayings with delusions of his own grandeur such as he did with the the Egyptian mummies. When the Book of Mormon was first presented, Smith did not reveal Lehi's landing and for good reason! South America is not mentioned in the annals of Smith's writings and he avoided any discussion of where Zarahemla and Bountiful were physically located. Why? Because he knew they never existed and did not want curious Mormons heading down to Delmarva looking for ruins of what he knew did not exist. Smith only concentrated on Cumorah which was the final leg in Book of Mormon travels and the very place in which the last wars were fought as attested by Smith and Cowdery.

The whole thing is a nonstarter. Sorry Dan, but you are wasting your time looking where Smith never looked. You are way off the trail, my friend. You need to concentrate on what the text reveals and forget about the Pratts and traditions of early Mormons who failed to calculate the geography of the text as pertaining to time, distance, and area -- all of which were important to Joseph Smith and worked together with the chronology that is maintained within the text. Smith was precise and made every effort to remain spot on. He was into the numbers! He was cognizant of time, distance, and area and how it related to the timeline. The answers are in the text, Dan.

But do as you as you will. I'm sure you are a thorn in the side of some.

[Boomer57]

I posted a new video today: “Did Lehi’s Ship Land in South America?” In this video, I discuss the early church tradition of Lehi’s ship landing on the western coast of South America, focusing on two manuscript copies of a purported revelation to Joseph Smith stating that Lehi landed at thirty degrees south latitude in Chile. I also explore attempts to deny Joseph Smith’s authorship of the revelation by apologists who want to limit Book of Mormon events to North or Central America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx2ijUSwuPk

Your videos and books always inspire. Looking forward to this one!

[Boomer57]

I listened to the whole thing and thought it was excellent! Thank you Mr. Vogel!

[Shulem]

Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.

Let's be perfectly clear about something. There was no Ether. The book is entirely fiction, from start to finish. It was Joseph Smith who visualized Ether and who pretended to see the building of the New Jerusalem upon "THIS LAND" (America) which was the very land Smith was acquainted with wherein he planned to build his religious community and head his new religion as the prophet. The furthest thing from Smith's mind was Chile and Panama. Smith had his eye on Delmarva, Cumorah, and the USA proper.

And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.

Let's be perfectly clear that Smith's every intention was to build his New Jerusalem upon the very land in which he dwelt and that it would be among the Lamanites who were descendants of the original Lamanites. That was Smith's original plan he devised as he dictated the story of Ether. There was no Ether, only Joseph Smith and the only land Smith had in mind was the US proper which was the very place in which his stories took place. Smith visualized the New Jerusalem while dictating the Book of Mormon and it was upon the choice land of America.

That is a fact. don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[huckelberry]

It can be argued that Joseph Smith did not want to discuss the location of Book of Mormon geography solely on the basis that he never discussed it or published statements to that effect in which he formally claimed to author specific information about the geography such as the narrow neck and how the land north of it led to Cumorah. Smith had everyday of his ministry to publish statements about Chile and South America in his personal journal or in the periodicals published by the Mormons. What came in Times and Seasons 1842 were journalistic afterthoughts and ideas to link Book of Mormon history to those places -- it was only a matter of convenience. When Smith gave a revelation and wanted something known he would fix his name to it and punctuate his sayings with delusions of his own grandeur such as he did with the the Egyptian mummies. When the Book of Mormon was first presented, Smith did not reveal Lehi's landing and for good reason! South America is not mentioned in the annals of Smith's writings and he avoided any discussion of where Zarahemla and Bountiful were physically located. Why? Because he knew they never existed and did not want curious Mormons heading down to Delmarva looking for ruins of what he knew did not exist. Smith only concentrated on Cumorah which was the final leg in Book of Mormon travels and the very place in which the last wars were fought as attested by Smith and Cowdery.

The whole thing is a nonstarter. Sorry Dan, but you are wasting your time looking where Smith never looked. You are way off the trail, my friend. You need to concentrate on what the text reveals and forget about the Pratts and traditions of early Mormons who failed to calculate the geography of the text as pertaining to time, distance, and area -- all of which were important to Joseph Smith and worked together with the chronology that is maintained within the text. Smith was precise and made every effort to remain spot on. He was into the numbers! He was cognizant of time, distance, and area and how it related to the timeline. The answers are in the text, Dan.

But do as you as you will. I'm sure you are a thorn in the side of some.

Shulem, I am not sure I understand why you think Dan is looking for a Book of Mormon location.

I think your view that Joseph would not wish to direct attention to a particular location, particularly the one you see as a template for the imagination, makes sense.

[Shulem]

Shulem, I am not sure I understand why you think Dan is looking for a Book of Mormon location.

It's my understanding that Vogel assumes the Moundbuilder myth is all encompassing in which Smith fully adopted it to create the overall geography of tales of fiction within a hemospheric model. Only Vogel can speak for himself as for exactly when he thinks Smith thought that Lehi landed at Chile and how Smith visualized Lehi's voyage when he dictated it on two separate occasions. Remember, Joseph was a seer and seers SEE.

I think your view that Joseph would not wish to direct attention to a particular location ,particularly the one you see as a template for the imagination, makes sense.

Yes, he kept it in check. The last thing Smith needed was the saints requesting an expedition to find the ruins of Zarahemla and the temple of Bountiful. You will recall that "ruins" is a major feature in the Book of Mormon and so ruins of the like had to be Smith's worst fear because he knew everything about his stories were fiction and couldn't be verified by archeological means.