Wyatt opens up

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huckelberry
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Re: Wyatt opens up

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Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:28 am
Hey, huckelberry! Thanks for delving into the responses. I had missed Hart’s. He is one of my favorite theologians, if he is the person I am thinking of.
Kishkumen, your "if" got me to look again. I looked up, leaves in the Wind, and find a blog by the individual you are most likely thinking of. His picture matches the widely published author. I also checked google and found an article by him which relates to the discussion above. I found it striking. I will impose on this thread a bit to express myself. I have something between horror and distaste for some aspects of modern Christianity. I find it very difficult to see anything Christian in Left Behind, Late Great Planet Earth, end of the world preppers. I am disturbed by the gross rejection of science held by people insisting only their young earth creationism is correct. I am deeply repulsed by the hard core Calvinist view of grace which sees the natural as totally corrupt. These may be three different centers of attention but they are clearly different versions of the same basic idea.

Mr. Hart addresses this in the article I stumbled upon:
It sought to affirm the gratuity of God’s goodness by creating an absolute distinction between the natural and supernatural ends of rational creatures.

This tradition came to assert that spiritual beings are so undeserving of grace, so incapable of meriting or rising to the grace that God may or may not elect to give them, that in their own natures they don’t even have the supernatural knowledge of God as their proper end. In that way of thinking, humans might be curious about God in a kind of etiological sense, as an explanatory principle. In other words, they might be moved to wonder where the world came from. But as purely natural beings they would not have the insatiable longing for God that Augustine describes as the unquiet heart—“our hearts are restless till they rest in you.”

Put simply, it suggests that grace cannot truly complete human nature but that it must be superadded.

Where do you think this touches the ground for the Christian story? What difference would it make to how someone articulates the faith?

Well, there are any number of immediate problems with this. One is that it is basically a rejection of the whole Christian tradition on what a spiritual being is. Any coherent consideration of a natural being’s nature requires that all of its desires and wills occur in the context of a consuming rational desire for the good, the true, the beautiful; otherwise nothing would prompt the rational will into action. But this consuming rational desire is, in fact, simply a way of naming the essence of God. Every other Christian tradition affirms this.

Another problem is that it creates a logical or metaphysical impossibility. It says that when God superadds grace to our natures, we are transformed into beings at once natural and supernatural, though there is no premise, either in faculty nor in potency, for the supernatural in us. Despite the Thomistic claim that grace perfects—rather than abolishes—nature, this view requires just the latter. If human beings—in receiving the fullness of grace—are transformed into something for which we have neither the potency nor the faculty already, then we’re not actually transformed:
https://www.christiancentury.org/articl ... -about-god

I suppose I can add this further quote from near the end of the article. I may hope it a bit extreme but I have been troubled by the same thought.
Christianity has never really taken deep root in America; we’ve all been much more committed to Mammon. I’m not talking conservative and liberal in the American cultural sense. It’s absurd to suggest that you can have any actual devotion to who Jesus of Nazareth was and embrace laissez-faire capitalism or the entrepreneurial principle or erecting a border wall and keeping out asylum seekers. National conservatives—the people who think Jesus would have loved the Second Amendment and hated Mexicans—are simply not Christians. There’s nothing about their vision of reality and their relations to their fellow human beings that bears the slightest resemblance to who and what Christ was and what he taught.

There’s not even a meaningful debate to be held on this: the Christian right is a movement whose ultimate ends are to extinguish real Christian convictions in society.
huckelberry
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Re: Wyatt opens up

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From the article linked in previous post:
Well, the idea of supernature is a kind of late intrusion upon Christian discourse. It has no presence in the Eastern tradition, and in the Western tradition it doesn’t appear until Philip the Chancellor in the 13th century. Even there, it’s not talking about a different order over and above nature as such. It’s only used to mean something in excess of the nature of a particular creature.

I’m not the first to say this: both Maurice Blondel, the greatest Catholic philosopher of the 19th and 20th centuries, and Henri de Lubac, for instance, made the case that supernature in the sense commonly meant—as a discrete order of divine reality separated from the created realm—is alien to scriptural, patristic, and early medieval thought.

Basically, what’s being said is that there has to be one principle of all, and that that principle is God. When this is understood, the natural and the supernatural are seen to be not really two different orders—as in nature against grace. Really, they are the same thing as viewed from two different perspectives. There’s no final dividing line between them.
It has crossed my mind from time to time that a version of this is Mormonism’s strongest idea. I think it is in Mormonism mangled up with a lot of laws and rules which may derive from magical thought.
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Re: Wyatt opens up

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Kishkumen , I stumbled upon an interview with Hart which you may enjoy if you are not already familiar with it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPEhNqTuD0Q

It touches on a variety of subjects. Beethoven, which is the best Bob Dylan song. He proposed Blind Willie Mctell. I am failing to remember the song. I do remember Bob proposing that individual as a special favorite of his. I have recordings of Mctell's own music, outstanding twelve string guitar.

The Book of Mormon gets briefly considered. It is connected to the relationship of faith and reason. Reason rules and faith must follow.

I agree.

Google helped me with the Dylan song, Wikipedia informs me that Hart's opinion is actually shared by others. The song is to be found in reissue bootleg series. I checked my examples, volume three which I have neglected being 80s songs has the song in question. I will have to listen later. I probably heard it once upon a time.
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Re: Wyatt opens up

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Yes, his critique of Thomism is really great, and I think you are insightful to see the similarity between his version of Orthodoxy and Mormonism. There are, of course, big differences, but I have sometimes thought that, if an American-Hartian version of large O Orthodoxy had existed in Smith’s time, the Restoration might have been beside the point. Orthodoxy already has some of the Restoration’s best elements.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
huckelberry
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Re: Wyatt opens up

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Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2023 11:23 am
Yes, his critique of Thomism is really great, and I think you are insightful to see the similarity between his version of Orthodoxy and Mormonism. There are, of course, big differences, but I have sometimes thought that, if an American-Hartian version of large O Orthodoxy had existed in Smith’s time, the Restoration might have been beside the point. Orthodoxy already has some of the Restoration’s best elements.
In the interview I linked, he is asked what are major differences between east and west Christianity in ideas, not structure. Hart notes that the east does not believe in inherited guilt (like the idea we all inherit guilt from Adam).
East does not hold a doctrine of predestination. Grace is part of the way God always relates to creation. It aims to complete the good started in creation. Human spirit is divine spirit.
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Re: Wyatt opens up

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I am stuck a bit with my enthusiasm for the discovery of the thoughts of Mr Hart. I have not found angles creating discussion however, sorry. Please pardon my Indulging a few further paragraphs. Here is a link to Hart discussing Christian Universalism. He points out the idea was never condemned in Eastern Orthodox and has something of deep tradition.Hart presents strong arguments I think.

He proposes George McDonald as saint. (19th century author who CS Lewis referred to as a guide.) McDonald made some contribution long ago to my conversion to Christian faith.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sgz2fFiFAo
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Kishkumen
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Re: Wyatt opens up

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huckelberry wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 2:50 am
I am stuck a bit with my enthusiasm for the discovery of the thoughts of Mr Hart. I have not found angles creating discussion however, sorry. Please pardon my Indulging a few further paragraphs. Here is a link to Hart discussing Christian Universalism. He points out the idea was never condemned in Eastern Orthodox and has something of deep tradition.Hart presents strong arguments I think.

He proposes George McDonald as saint. (19th century author who CS Lewis referred to as a guide.) McDonald made some contribution long ago to my conversion to Christian faith.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sgz2fFiFAo
I think it is wonderful you have fallen down the Hart rabbit hole. You should subscribe to his blog. I enjoy it.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Kishkumen
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Re: Wyatt opens up

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huckelberry wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 2:50 am
I am stuck a bit with my enthusiasm for the discovery of the thoughts of Mr Hart. I have not found angles creating discussion however, sorry. Please pardon my Indulging a few further paragraphs. Here is a link to Hart discussing Christian Universalism. He points out the idea was never condemned in Eastern Orthodox and has something of deep tradition.Hart presents strong arguments I think.

He proposes George McDonald as saint. (19th century author who CS Lewis referred to as a guide.) McDonald made some contribution long ago to my conversion to Christian faith.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sgz2fFiFAo
Thanks for posting this link. I finished the video last night. Wonderful!
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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